Timehost: Hello, everyone, welcome to Time Forum this evening. We're
going to be talking about the Clinton scandals. And we're joined by a man
who knows a great deal about Presidential scandals... John Dean, former
counsel to President Nixon, whose testimony to the Senate Watergate
committee riveted the nation for five days in 1973. Mr. Dean, welcome.
John Dean: I'm delighted to be with you today.
Timehost: Let me ask the first question. As you look at the
allegations about President Clinton, is there anything about your experience
in Watergate that you think offers parallels, or are the scandals too
different?
John Dean: I think the scandals from what we know at this time, are
very different. I think it's important that we appreciate that with regard to
Mr. Clinton, we are dealing only with allegations. With regard to
Watergate, we have a vast historical record of what happened at the Nixon
White House.
Gerald_Nixon asks: At what point does the interests of the country
trump the attorney-client privilege, if ever?
John Dean: There is no attorney-client privilege to cover criminal
activity. Thus, the privilege is trumped every time when a crime is
involved.
Mr.Dean asks: What is your general opinion of "Special Prosecutors?"
John Dean: I've read the independent counsel statute, and I find that
it is a troubled and potentially flawed law. It creates a situation where
the prosecutor has already targeted who he is looking at as a potential
offender rather than looking to see what crimes have been committed. Also,
there is really almost no accountability for the independent counsel under
the statute. He can be removed for cause but it is not clear what cause is.
And he is required to report to both the court that appoints him and the
Congress but it's unclear when and how much detail he's required to provide.
I suspect that the aftermath of this particular episode we're in now will
result in a change in that law regardless of the outcome.
Gerald_Nixon asks: Knowing what you know about the Watergate cover-up,
do you think Clinton is drawing from that experience?
John Dean: We wrote the book on what not to do. I hope for his sake,
he's read it.
Cheaves asks: In your opinion how much of Nixon's distrust of the
media was valid?
John Dean: Well, Mr. Nixon had a long running antagonism with the
media. And it's never been clear to me that either side of that antagonism
was without problems.
Excaliber123 asks: In what ways have your morals been changed by
Watergate?
John Dean: I was very young when I got involved in Watergate. And it
was a very maturing experience. Anything I would say in response to this
question would sound self-serving, so I think I'll defer.
GO_GOP1 asks: Mr. Dean do you feel that the campaign finance laws
that Clinton was said to have violated should have triggered a special prosecutor?
Do you feel Reno did the right thing in not seeking a
special prosecutor?
John Dean: The way the statute is set up, the attorney general made a
preliminary investigation and found no basis to recommend an independent
counsel be appointed. I've seen no evidence to suggest that that wasn't an
objective and detached determination.
Lynny13 asks: Has the media blown the whole scandal with Clinton
sky-high?
John Dean: They certainly had a lot of media attention directed to
this incident, and I think it's too early to say whether it's been distorted
or excessive.
Clarebelle asks: What are you doing now, professionally?
John Dean: I'm an investment banker in California.
GrowingInGrace asks: Also, in your book, Blind Ambition, you seem to
be in the beginning very loyal to the President, as things developed, did
you feel betrayed?
John Dean: The closer I got to the inner circle of the Nixon White
House, the more troubled I became with what was occurring. I certainly was
loyal when I took the job and had every reason to believe I should be loyal.
By the time I broke rank I felt very little loyalty, because I think loyalty
is something that has to be earned.
Ve2kbw asks: Mr. Dean: who do you think Deep Throat is? Al Haig?
John Dean: I have gone through that drill in years past. And
initially thought it was Al Haig. Today I don't think it is Haig. I'm not
really sure that any one person qualifies for all of the criteria that would
appear to be in the Woodward and Bernstein book relating to Deep Throat.
However, I don't doubt that Woodward had such a source. We all have to stay
tuned.
GrowingInGrace asks: Do you feel a leader can be morally bankrupt and
still be a competent leader?
John Dean: That's a Mussolini-made-the train-run kind of analysis.
Obviously, there have been a number of Mafia chieftains who have been very
effective criminals but morally bankrupt.
Bartless asks: Mr. Dean, in the current political and media climate we
have now, if someone witnessed improper activity between Ms. Lewinsky and
Clinton, would you suggest they come forward or remain silent?
John Dean: I would hope they'd come forward, if it were relevant. to
any criminal proceeding. However, I think that if it is not relevant, that
it would be an invasion of privacy.
Vern-54 asks: Do you think that the press is/will treat Clinton
better than Nixon on this issue?
John Dean: There's much more media today than when Nixon was having his
difficulty. The media is much more competitive today. There also is the Internet.
I think this will be a very good exercise to find out how
objective the media can be in looking at a situation like this.
Usako_tsukino asks: Why didn't Nixon think about destroying the
tapes? I mean, he shouldn't have done it, but still. . .
John Dean: I suspect Nixon did think about destroying the tapes, and
decided for his own reasons not to do so. It's my understanding that he was
also understandably concerned about being impeached for the very act of
destroying the tapes.
Usako_tsukino asks: Did you know about the tapes when you were
talking to Nixon?
John Dean: I testified before the Senate that I suspected that I had
been taped. It became apparent to me in one meeting in particular that Nixon
was taping me. Because I so testified, Alex Butterfield would later be asked
the question as to whether I had been taped. The rest is history.
GO_GOP1 asks: Mr. Dean do you feel Clinton's actions are so that
his presidential history will be marred by corruption and immorality?
John Dean: There's going to be a winner and a loser in this current
episode. I don't know how it's going to come out, but I certainly hope, for
the sake of the country, that Mr. Clinton has reported truthfully that there
was no affair.
GrowingInGrace asks: What are your feelings about the potential
privacy violations by Monica Lewinsky's so-called friend who taped her
conversation about her experiences with Clinton?
John Dean: I think it is clearly a violation of the law of Maryland.
It's my understanding that when a party claims to have been unaware of that
law the prosecutors do not pursue the cases. However, everyone today knows
that it is against the law to tape in Maryland, so it mystifies me how
anyone can be using or disclosing the contents of those conversations, for
that is also a violation of the Maryland law. We should also remember that
Monica Lewinsky has a very strong civil lawsuit against those who have used
and disclosed the contents of her illicitly recorded conversations.
Cheaves asks: Did it ever enter your mind to be the "scapegoat" that
the President wanted you to be?
John Dean: Well, the President selected the wrong person, when he and
some of his aides thought that I was willing to be the scapegoat.
Posteris asks: Who did you admire during the Watergate time?
John Dean: Many people. For example, I thought that the Watergate
prosecutor's office had a number of fine and honorable prosecutors. I
thought that the Senate Watergate Committee had a number of able, both staff
and members. A number of people distinguished themselves not only in my
mind, but in the public's mind during Watergate. The list is long.
Mr_Real_Mellow asks: Tell us the strangest or weirdest thing that you
saw happen at the White House
John Dean: I'm not sure how the questioner defines strange or weird,
but the White House is not a place where a lot of strange and weird things
occur. It is a highly professional, tightly run organization. Because it is
small, relatively speaking, people on the staff know each other and have
some general awareness of what everyone else is doing. However, most White
Houses also operate in compartments, with one office not really having
detailed information about the details of another office. I suspect that
the Clinton White House, like its predecessors, is also compartmentalized.
Weird and strange behavior is really not tolerated.
Provenance asks: In the years when Nixon was working to restore his
reputation, did you regain any respect for him as a person?
John Dean: I certainly had to admire his fortitude and efforts to
rehabilitate his reputation. Clearly, many things Nixon did in his life he
had to be proud of. And it's unfortunate that it's impossible to look at his
life without focusing also on Watergate.
Rna8 asks: Do you wish to re-enter politics, and would you return to
the White House if asked?
John Dean: I was never really in politics. Rather, I was a young man
who very early found himself in a number of significant government
positions. I was the chief minority counsel of the House Judiciary
Committee, I was the associate deputy attorney general, and then counsel to
the president. I had never planned to make a career of government. And I
look back on my experience in government, and feel there were more good days than bad days.
I still have a lot of friends in government and people that I
got to know while I was in government.
BlueSky68 asks: Mr. Dean do you remain in contact with your friends
from your days in The Nixon White House?
John Dean: With some, yes.
Posteris asks: How did you and Maureen handle the emotional trauma of
being the only one to be telling the truth during such a bad time of your
life?
John Dean: Well, I must say, that it's much easier to come forward
when you're telling the truth, and I cannot imagine what it would be like to
have to perpetuate a life of lies. It was a tough time, but also, it was not
difficult in the sense of anyone who would try to maintain a cover-up.
King_Mack asks: did you feel scared when you revealed Watergate?
John Dean: I didn't feel frightened. But the government was very
concerned about my safety, so I was placed in the protective custody of the
US Marshals Service, for over a year.
Allen_Georgia asks: At a time, it seemed that no one believed what
you were saying, under oath. How did you deal with that, and what advice
have you for those in a similar position today?
John Dean: At one point, I thought it could be my word against five
or six or even seven different persons, but since I knew I was telling the
truth as best I could remember it, I was not really concerned.
John Dean: Unfortunately, the taping system came out and corroborated
portions of my testimony. In the years since, even more tapes have come out
to document what I had to say.
GrowingInGrace asks: Your comments regarding Nixon's efforts to
rehabilitate himself suggest that you might not have felt his efforts were
genuine. Was he simply doing image enhancement as opposed to actual change in your opinion?
John Dean: I have no idea what was going on in Richard Nixon's head.
I am certainly aware of his efforts to improve his public image. I think his
effort in that regard was certainly sincere. Whether he ever had any regrets
about Watergate, and his behavior as president, I don't know.
Bryan23323 asks: You were the legendary stool pigeon of Watergate,
who do you think will be the stooly of Clinton's downfall?
John Dean: Well, I have had that label placed on me by those not
really aware of the facts. My option was whether to tell the truth or lie.
And for me, that was no option. I don't know if anyone has as much knowledge
of the present situation as I happened to fall into related to Watergate.
Prometheus8 asks: Do you believe there is less interest in pursuing
Clinton than Nixon?
John Dean: I think there's less interest in invading the President's
non-presidential activities than there was in a corresponding interest in
invading and understanding and investigating Nixon's abuse of office. I
think the scandal relating to Watergate had a different focus than the
investigation being undertaken by Kenneth Starr.
Prometheus8 asks: People say Nixon did no different than others, he
just got caught. Is our government that corrupt?
<John Dean: I hope not. Let me further respond by sharing that at one point,
I was asked to go back and see what prior presidents had done to see if we could make
Watergate look better. And while I found isolated abuses had certainly occurred
in prior presidencies, I found nothing comparable to the width and the breadth of the
abuses that had occurred under Nixon.
johnguest_2db95195 asks: What do you think of G. Gordon Liddy?
John Dean: I'd rather not say it. At this time.
Steel-paradox asks: Do you think the movie "Nixon" had more truth or
more 'Hollywood' in it?
John Dean: I believe that Oliver Stone tried to capture what had
really gone on and sought to interpret the character Richard Nixon. We must
remember that any film is at best a metaphor. And I think that Stone did a
remarkably good job in what he captured of Nixon and his presidency.
Rna8 asks: Time now reports "some revisionist Watergate buffs blame
you for the cover-up". May we have your response?
John Dean: Well, there is a lot of wacko revisionism relating to
Watergate. And for those uninterested in learning the truth they may find it
of interest. However, the record is quite complete as to who did what, when
and why.
GrowingInGrace asks: Hillary Clinton suggests a political conspiracy
behind recent scandal allegations. Do you agree, and if so, was there also
any type of political conspiracy at work in how Watergate came to light,
prior to your knowledge of the events?.
John Dean: With regard to Watergate, there was certainly no
conspiracy to unravel it. Although there was certainly a criminal conspiracy
to cover up the abuses occurring in the Nixon presidency. When I heard the
First Lady refer to a conspiracy on the right wing, I did not take it as a
literal conspiracy. Rather, I thought she was referring to the fact that any
number of right wingers have for the last five years been hammering on the
Clinton presidency with an endless supply of preposterous charges. Sooner or
later, all those attacks have to have an impact on those who are being
subjected to them. One of the observations that I've made over the years is
that the right is much more vicious in its political attacking than the
left. So I suspect it's been a tough time for the President, his family and
his associates.
Prometheus8 asks: Having lived through and participated in an
impeachment event, do you see anything about the present situation that
would make you think "impeachment"?
John Dean: Well, impeachment is the equivalent of an indictment by
the House of Representatives. And an impeachable offense is whatever a
majority of the House Judiciary Committee and the House of Representatives
define to be an impeachable offense. In short, impeachment is a purely
political process.
The-finn asks: Do You think Vernon Jordan would lie to protect Bill
Clinton?
John Dean: I do not know Vernon Jordan. But I can't imagine that a
sophisticated, and experienced attorney like Jordan would lie for anyone.
Steveschohn asks: What do you think of Woodward and Bernstein?
John Dean: Very good reporters.
Racydavid asks: So you felt that Oliver Stone captured the mood and what
went on in the White House?
John Dean: Yes.
Racydavid asks: Do you find it ironic that the Republicans have
trouble with power and the Democrats with women?
John Dean:( Laughs.) I've never looked at it quite that way.
SharonJeguest_14b95108 asks: Mr. Dean do you believe the charges
against President Clinton?
John Dean: I never believe any charges against anyone until I see
evidence to support them. It's very easy to make false charges.
Timehost: Let's put it this way... is this a legitimate area of
investigation in your view?
John Dean: I have grave doubts that a president's private life is
ever an appropriate area for investigation. And the convoluted manner that
has placed us in this stage of the investigation is very difficult for me to
accept. In brief, had Judge Starr exercised his prosecutorial discretion,
differently, none of this would have been on the front pages, and I'm not
sure I understand why he's chosen to investigate the area he's now pursuing.
Jennerb asks: If you had it to do over again, would you change your
position to protect President Nixon and what changes have occurred in your
life directly related to this decision?
John Dean: I could never have lied, and I made it very clear to the
President and all the senior men around him that I would not lie. It was not
even an issue for me, and I had so informed all very early in the cover-up.
Mbc53 asks: How does the way the Clinton White House is handling the
Lewinsky matter compare with the way the Nixon White House handled
Watergate?
John Dean: I don't know how the Clinton White House is handling the
Lewinsky affair. I do know that they're obviously beleaguered and ,given the
fact that they're being pulled to the grand jury on a daily basis, it's got
to be a very difficult place to work.
Timehost: hold on one moment...a little technical problem...
John Dean: I think we just had an 18 1/2 minute gap. And to
paraphrase Al Haig, it was obviously "sinister forces."
Peterdrj asks: Is Gordon Liddy lying about your function in the
Watergate break in?
John Dean: I have a lawsuit against Mr. Liddy and look forward to the
day we can sort that out in a courtroom.
atgguest_c8d6199 asks: Why do you think G. Gordon Liddy says that you
did not tell the truth in Watergate
John Dean: I'll rely on the last answer for that one.
Florencia7 asks: What was your personal "low point" or darkest time
during Watergate?
John Dean: Well, I think probably the toughest time was when I was
still internally trying to convince people that the cover-up wasn't going to
work -- and discovered that all my superiors wanted to do was to point their
fingers at everyone but themselves.
GrowingInGrace asks: Mr. Dean, this goes back to my earlier question.
Yes, someone can be effective, yet have little morals, but are you
suggesting that a president's private life should not be investigated?
John Dean: I do not believe a president's private life should be the
subject of an investigation unless it related directly to some matter
affecting his ability to serve as president. I think that what he does in
the privacy of his bedroom is no one's business.
Cubfan222 asks: Were you ever fearful that your actions at the time
of Watergate would adversely effect the general well-being of the citizens
of the US?
John Dean: Before I testified, I talked to several people who I
respected greatly and to whom I put that very question. Every one of them
told me to proceed with my testimony.
Suzyzoo_ asks: Mr. Dean...why did you not tell the truth at the very
beginning?
John Dean: I reject the premise of the question because I did tell
the truth at the beginning.
Shanny_Moo asks: How did the media react toward you when you revealed this information?
John Dean: I went through the same media circus that is now going on
in Washington. I had people camped outside my house around the clock. I was
followed everywhere, and it went on for weeks and months on end. Some of
those reporters actually became friends. For example, I used to see
Connie Chung from time to time, and we would laugh about when she was camped
out with many others in front of my house.
Racydavid asks: How about today? Do you see this as a serious attempt
to get at the truth or partisan politics/machiavellian moves? in regard to
President Clinton?
John Dean: I must believe that Ken Starr and his staff are well
motivated and seeking to determine what in fact did occur. However, I think
the area they're pursuing is out of bounds. I certainly don't see a
conspiracy in Mr. Starr's office, but I think that no doubt Mr. Starr and
his staff are sympathetic with conservative Republican ideals. And I suspect
feel their investigation is believed to be quite appropriate.
Ceeotter asks: After Nixon, has impeachment become more, or less,
palatable to the American people?
John Dean: That's a very good question. I think the apparatus of
impeachment was oiled by Nixon. But also, the public now has a better
perception of what it's all about. I'm not sure how this cuts. Good question.
Shrubgod asks: Did Nixon ever try to contact you in his later years?
John Dean: No.
Cjp3_charles asks: Mr. Dean, if you had any advice for President
Clinton on settling this Paula Jones/Lewinsky matter, what would you tell
him?
John Dean: Obviously, if a lawsuit can be settled on reasonable
terms, it's always better to settle. I have no knowledge as to the actual
negotiations relating to the settlement of the Jones case. But if it goes to
trial, it will be an unfortunate spectacle that will only be good for the
lawyers and the media.
SharonJeguest_14b95108 asks: Mr. Dean what were the last words you
spoke to President Nixon?
John Dean: I'm sure that's on a tape. But I cannot recall
specifically what those final words were when we spoke on the telephone in
late April 1973. I do recall in one of our last conversations, I told him
that I was concerned that if matters were not handled properly, he could be
impeached. He assured me that that would not happen. He was wrong.
Rna8 asks: how would you like history to remember you?
John Dean: As an honest man.
John Dean: I have enjoyed the opportunity to
participate in this chat. For I am a longtime Internet user. I go back
before the WWW, and I appreciate the world with graphic interfaces
tremendously. I have also learned, however, that the Internet is not only a
source for fast and reliable information but a source for a tremendous
amount of misinformation. That's why brand names like TIME are becoming
increasingly important. Good luck to all and may we all wish this particular
scandal resolves itself sooner rather than later.
Timehost: We have very much enjoyed speaking with you here this
evening. Thanks for joining us. And we hope you'll come back again.
