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Lee

Hong Kong's Martin Lee and TIME's Sandra Burton

Transcript from Sunday, May 18

Moderator says, "Good evening and welcome to the IMPACT Forum. Tonight we looking at the future of Hong Kong. Our first guest is Martin Lee, head of the Democratic Party in Hong Kong. Then we'll be speaking Sandra Burton, TIME's bureau chief in Hong Kong."

Moderator says, "If you want to ask a question, type "/go auditorium" then click on the red question mark and submit your question in the box. If you want to talk to other users while the interview continues, type, "/go time.""

Moderator says, "Good evening, Mr. Lee and Ms. Burton."

Sandra_burton says, "Good evening."

Moderator says, "Mr. Lee, the government scaled back some of its positions on Thursday. Where do things stand now?"

Martin_lee says, "The scaling back of our human rights protection laws does not come from our present governor but from the future chief executive designate Mr.Tung."

Martin_lee says, "Mr. Tung's justification is that there must be a balance between the rights of individuals who want to demonstrate in public and the order of our society as a whole. but we already have that proper balance under our present law and the police are happy with the present law and their present powers."

Martin_lee says, "So why should Mr. Tung give the police more powers than they want in restricting our people's right to demonstrate, which they always do peacefully in Hong Kong."

Moderator presents question #151 from Eye_q_wizard: Do you think true democracy is going to be allowed in HK and do you feel that your party could be seriously threatened by the Chinese Government?

Martin_lee says, "True democracy is not to be equated only with free and democratic elections. But without fair and democratic elections, you don't even get started."

Martin_lee says, "In Hong Kong today, we already have a legislature which was elected by more than one million people in September 1995 for a four year term. But the Chinese government has now established another legislature, the members of which were selected by four hundred Hong Kong people all of whom were hand-picked by Beijing."

Martin_lee says, "This Beijing chosen legislature will replace our elected legislature on July 1 of this year. We can only expect the Beijing appointed legislature to pass laws which Beijing wants and not laws which the Hong Kong people want. And this appointed legislature is already rolling back a number of human rights protection laws even before the first of July."

Martin_lee says, "As for my party, the Democratic party, which is the most popular political party in Hong Kong. It will be very tough for us, once China takes Hong Kong back, because all our 19 legislators our of our legislature of 60, will be thrown out of the legislature on July 1."

Martin_lee says, "To complete, the Beijing-controlled, new legislature, will soon be changing our electoral laws to make sure that my party can only win a very small number of seats in the future. "

Moderator says, "You've promised to carry the battle for democracy forward. How will your party proceed when not part of the government?"

Martin_lee says, "It will indeed be very difficult once we are thrown out of the legislature for we no longer have a forum within the government. We will also be in great financial difficulties."

Martin_lee says, "On top of it all, we are afraid that the press will be under a lot of pressure from Beijing and will therefore put us in a very unfavorable light."

Martin_lee says, "But we will soldier on, confidently, because we have the support of our people. We have been the voice of our people and we intend to continue to be the voice of Hong Kong."

Moderator presents question #153 from Mgvalentin: Since we're here at Time's web site, what problems do you think companies such as Time Inc. will face once the new government is in place...?

Moderator says, "In other words do you think foreign companies will be able to continue business unhindered"

Martin_lee says, "I certainly hope that the foreign press will be given the same freedom which it has under British rule."

Martin_lee says, "But having seen how overseas journalists are dealt with by the Chinese government in Beijing and elsewhere in China, I have to say that there present worries are justified, but the best safeguard for press freedom in Hong Kong under Chinese rule is for the press, both local and overseas, to report as before, and when the freedom to report is curtailed in any way, let all journalists shout about it.""

Moderator says, "If you are just joining us welcome to the IMPACT forum on the Future of Hong Kong. We are speaking to opposition leader Martin Lee, head of the Democratic Party and among those who will be replaced when China takes over from Britain July 1. Also Joining us is TIME Hong Kong Bureau chief Sandra Burton."

Moderator presents the speakers with question #154 from Fortune_sysop: Why all the concern about democracy now? The economy worked fine under the Brits, when there was little democracy for most of Hong Kong's history?

Martin_lee says, "Good question. It is true that under British rule we have freedoms protected by the rule of law without democracy in Hong Kong."

Martin_lee says, "But this is possible only because the colonial government here is but an extension of the British administration 8,000 miles away, where both the British government and the British parliament are democratically elected by the British people."

Martin_lee says, "If the British appointed governor were to lock up overseas reporters without or I should say other people, without trial, questions abound to be asked in the British parliament and it could theoretically bring down the British government. Now if the Chinese government and its legislature, the National People's Congress, were also democratically elected, then I would be happy to leave our freedoms and our rule of law to be left in the hands of the democratically elected Chinese government."

Martin_lee says, "But, unfortunately, the Chinese government and the Chinese National People's Congress are not democratically elected at all."

Martin_lee says, "Chinese people have long been put into prison for their political or religious beliefs and no question has ever been asked in the NPC about these infringements on individual freedoms."

Martin_lee says, "That is why once our links with Britain are to be severed, we must look for some other safeguards which can only come from democracy because it will guarantee that all our leaders, the chief executive as well as our legislators,"

Martin_lee says, "will have to defend our freedoms, our else they will not be re-elected in the next elections. Done"

Moderator presents question #160 from Fortune_sysop: Might China's rule be better in terms of such matters as educational standards? Under the laissez-faire of the British, Hong Kong schools have been turning out fewer good English speakers than, say, Singapore. Doesn't Hong Kong need more intervention?

Martin_lee says, "The Sino-British joint declaration made in 1984 as well as our future constitution, the Basic Law, promised a high degree of autonomy for the future Hong Kong government."

Martin_lee says, "This clearly includes the education system and all education as well as education promises."

Martin_lee says, "The fact that some people may think that general standard of English among our students is not sufficiently good does not mean or justify any intervention from Beijing. Our people are aiming at bilingualism. Done."

Moderator presents question #161 from Harv1: Mr. Lee is Taiwan playing any role direct or indirect in attempting to play an influence in HK's upcoming government?

Martin_lee says, "China clearly wants to win Taiwan back to the fold but, Taiwan people are clearly watching Hong Kong very closely."

Martin_lee says, "If China mishandles Hong Kong, then the people in Taiwan will resist reunification. So the Taiwan factor is always thought to be a very important one in China's policies towards Hong Kong."

Martin_lee says, "But, no factor is more important than the Chinese leaders' ability to stay in power. And if they feel their position is jeopardized, they would stop at nothing."

Martin_lee says, "The Beijing massacre in 1989 illustrates this point very well. Before the June 4 massacre in 1989, China's economy was doing extremely well. But the Chinese leaders thought the student movement was threatening their ability to govern, and so they brought in the army and the tanks to shoot and kill their own people, with the result that China's economy was completely ruined for three long years. I am therefore afraid that China"

Martin_lee says, "I am therefore afraid that China might sacrifice Taiwan or Hong Kong if the Chinese leaders believe it was necessary to do so in order to remain in power."

Moderator says, "Thank you Mr. Lee, Let's follow up now with TIME bureau Chief Sandra Burton."

Moderator presents question #158 from Harv1: Sandra, from your perspective, what preparations are various sectors of the population making in lieu of the pending transition?

Moderator says, "In light of, Sandra."

Sandra_burton says, "People in Hong Kong are relatively calm, if anxious about the future, but so far the polls show a good degree of confidence in the future, and there have been no runs on the banks or mass exodus of people."

Moderator presents question #163 from Harv1: Ms. Burton - how is HK's financial community reacting?

Moderator says, "Things seem to be OK for Capital, is this true?"

Sandra_burton says, "It is riding high at the moment. Investment is pouring into the Hong Kong stock exchange from Chinese companies, the property market is soaring, and there has been no recent evidence of capital flight of foreign money."

Moderator says, "It seems as if there's not neccessarily a correlation with capitalism and democracy. Hong Kong was great for capitalism before it was great for civil rights, do you agree?"

Sandra_burton says, "That is true. However, the Hong Kong financial markets have thrived under the stable political climate and the rule of common law which Britain provided."

Sandra_burton says, " So the level playing field, transparency of financial transactions, the free flow of information, and many other factors which Britain endowed Hong Kong must remain if the economy is to thrive in the future."

Moderator presents question #143 from Anivil: Ms. Burton, the Chinese do not have a free, press, do you think they will attempt to place restrictions on Hong Kong's press, and how will that effect your job?

Sandra_burton says, "The Chinese may try to intimidate the press, but it will be up to the hong Kong government to take action against the press or to tolerate it."

Sandra_burton says, "I have confidence at this point that the government will try to be tolerant and that cases against the press will be taken to the courts. Some legal procedures will be necessary before the press can be silenced."

Sandra_burton says, "Meanwhile, I would expect that we journalists and our readers in Hong Kong and the international community would create a certain uproar if action was taken against us. So I think we will be able to continue to write freely under the protection of these various forces."

Moderator says, "What do you think will happen to Martin Lee and his party?"

Sandra_burton says, "The Democratic Party has said that it would participate in the 1998 elections for a new legislature. Meanwhile, they have agreed to dialogue regularly with the incoming Chief Executive Mr. Tung."

Sandra_burton says, " I'm sure they will also continue to mount demonstrations and otherwise communicate their views on government policy to the public."

Sandra_burton says, "I think they will survive therefore until the elections, and they will probably get a lot of votes. Although, as Martin Lee said, the electoral rules will be stacked against them."

Moderator presents question #167 from Marcusbales: Ms Burton: I understand more Chinese troops have arrived than were promised; what is the status of troops stationed there now -- where are they and how many are there?

Sandra_burton says, "Two groups of troops have arrived, but that is not more than was promised. The British and the Chinese have agreed on the troop movements. Those that have come in early are unarmed, and they are maintaining a very low profile inside the garrison which the British are leaving."

Sandra_burton says, " We're told that the British commander and the Chinese commander on getting on well together."

Moderator presents question #169 from Helba: One UK politician said China doesn't mind elections, so long as they know the results beforehand. How can the Democratic Party ever be allowed a voice in HK politics?

Sandra_burton says, "It will have a voice in Hong Kong politics, because it reflects the aspirations of a great number of Hong Kong people. However, it will not be a majority party."

Moderator presents question #170 from Jenifermattos: Sandy, why isn't the media covering these electoral rules better than they are? Isn't this basically a case in which Beijing is purposely changing the rules to ensure the death of the Democratic party?

Sandra_burton says, "I think some of the pro-Beijing forces on the committee that has proposed the electoral rules are trying to kill the Democratic Party."

Sandra_burton says, " But I don't think that the incoming government of Hong Kong, which is, after all, comprised of Hong Kong people, not mainland officials, is trying to do that. They would like to marginalize the party, but they know it would be unwise to try and shut out a party as popular as the Democrats."

Moderator says, "Sandy, Hong Kong journalist Frances Moriariti told us that, in fact, corruption was the number one concern for most Hong Kong residents. Has the threat to human rights been exaggerated?"

Sandra_burton says, "The threat to human rights is important, and I think it is good that the Hong Kong community and the international community reacted so strongly to threats to the civil liberties. But in fairness, we have to remind our readers that Britain ruled for nearly 150 years with limited civil liberties in terms of protest demonstrations."

Moderator presents question #171 from Fortune_sysop: Sandra, Honk Kong is becoming less competitive than countries like, say, Singapore -- it's salaries and office rents are too high. If Hong kong does not continue prospering, will Beijing allow it to keep its special status? Like, why bother if it does?

Sandra_burton says, "The incoming government considers the threat of rising costs and increasing competition from the likes of Singapore as its biggest challenge: bigger than the political challenges which we focus on so intensely."

Sandra_burton says, "The economic challenges are the ones they will be trying to address first."

Moderator presents question #172 from Fortune_sysop: Sandra, I read a recent article which said that the big multinationals are pulling out, not because of worries about Beijing, but because the expenses are too high and the quality of the work force is falling. is that your impression?

Sandra_burton says, "No, I haven't heard of any major multinationals pulling out yet. The only company so noted is Reuters, which recently moved its operations to Singapore for a variety of reasons, including costs."

Sandra_burton says, " But I'm not aware of others."

Moderator says, "Sandra Burton, thanks very much for joining us. And thanks to everyone and we're sorry about the tech problems to night. I promise to remedy them. Good night."