NELSON MANDELA & F.W. DE KLERK

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Zulus, the Xhosas and others: self-rule taking into account the diversity of identities. America is the only exception where the melting pot works. In the rest of the world, nation-states that have clear majorities of one ethnic group within the country have been the pattern. So I say separate development was morally justifiable if you look at it as a constitutional option. When apartheid started, the colonial powers weren't worried about black political rights at all. In America racial discrimination was thriving. MANDELA: The government did not want any form of demonstration from blacks, no matter how disciplined, how peaceful. Any demonstration was regarded as a declaration of war against white supremacy. DE KLERK: The A.N.C. would not have negotiated if they thought they could win the armed struggle. Their goal was to take over all power. MANDELA: Many of our staunch comrades, very militant, said that as a result of the armed struggle, many of our people were arrested, and we gave the regime the opportunity to destroy completely the movement inside the country. But what the government did was to send in their armored cars , and the soldiers went from house to house beating up people. We say that is no different. DE KLERK: I don't think it was a good idea to tell people where to live and to kick people out of particular townships. It became forced removals. That is where apartheid became morally unjustifiable. As it failed, it became more and more racist and less and less morally defensible. People's dignity was being impaired, and it brought humiliation. I have said time and again, ''We are sorry that that happened.'' MANDELA: I don't think it is necessary for De Klerk to apologize. It is what a person does to ensure that the most brutal system of racial oppression is completely eliminated from our society. DE KLERK: I don't want to sound vindictive, but I am relatively satisfied with the agreement. I don't see that we have made any fundamental concessions on principle -- practical concessions, yes. MANDELA: There is no question of compromising on majority rule. But there has been a demand for federalism. The regions can draw up their own constitutions. They can make their own laws and impose taxation. We did not agree with this. But we felt that in order to bring everybody on board, we should make certain compromises. DE KLERK: They have made major concessions. They were wise. Domination cannot work, or there will again be a struggle. MANDELA: There is no doubt that South Africans, black and white, are coming together. I have been addressing some of the most conservative sectors. Their response is so positive. One of the first questions is, ''When did you change your policy?'' I say, ''This has always been our policy.'' They say, ''It's not true. You have been a terrorist organization.'' Nobody who hears our policy can fault it. DE KLERK: Looking back, I wouldn't have done any of the fundamental things I did differently. I achieved thus far almost all of the goals which I set for myself within these past four years. I would hope that history would recognize that I, together with all those who supported me, have shown courage, integrity, honesty at the moment of truth in our history. That we took the right turn.