World: Plain Talk from Golda Meir

IN her brief two months as Premier of Israel, Mrs. Golda Meir has proved a forceful and formidable public defender of Israel's interests as she sees them. She has never been more popular among Israelis, who admire her iron will, zest for long hours and hard work at the age of 71, and her blunt manner of speech. Those qualities were amply demonstrated in a recent interview with TIME Inc. Editor in Chief Hedley Donovan and TIME Managing Editor Henry Grunwald:

How do you read President Nasser's mood?

We don't find any difference, really. The only time he said anything new was immediately after the war, that great speech of his, when for a moment, I think, he was prepared to take the blame on himself. But I must say to his credit, he recovered very quickly and became true to himself again.

How close is the Middle East to another round of war?

Let us differentiate between two things. You know our position is that war is not imminent. But we have to be prepared also in case we misjudge. We can't risk it. Many people have lost wars in history and many people's countries have been occupied by foreign powers. Our history is much more tragic. Hitler took care of 6,000,000 Jews. If we lose a war, for us that is the last war. Then we are not here any more. If one doesn't understand this, then one doesn't understand our obstinacy.

Speaking of the 6,000,000, the Arabs were not responsible for their fate. It is often said by Arabs that history is taking it out on them, by having so many Arabs displaced from this country 20 years ago, and more recently.

The Arabs created a refugee problem. This is the truth. We didn't throw them out. In 1949, immediately after the war, the Cabinet of Israel decided that within a peace settlement with the Arab countries, we will take back about 100,-000 refugees. The Arabs wouldn't listen. For 20 years the refugees were kept in camps. The textbooks printed with the money of the United Nations were full of hatred toward Israel, with wonderful arithmetic examples of how there were five Israelis, we killed three, how many are left? Now the little boy who was five is now 25. He is maybe Fatah [an Arab commando] now. Now we are asked to give them a free choice to come back. This is a fifth column that we are asked to take.

Do you really feel that the refugee problem, socalled, is entirely created by the Arabs themselves?

One hundred per cent.

Does it disturb you that the American public, from having been 99% pro-Israel and enormously enthusiastic about the results of the June war, now seems slightly vexed with Israel?

If I am to choose a good press in the world with many good things about an Israel that isn't here any more, or unfair criticism of an Israel that is still in existence, then I choose the latter. We were the people who were attacked. The attacked won the war. Certainly we would be much happier if the U.S., and other countries in the world, would see the situation as we do. I am convinced that every one of these countries in our position would act exactly as we are. I understand American interests. Not only as citizens of Israel, but as citizens of the world, we are vitally interested that there should be an understanding between America and the Soviet Union. But, to say it very bluntly, not at our expense.