New
Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark:
In Search of a Nation's Soul
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TIME:
Given that it's probably felt strongly -if privately-in Canberra
that New Zealand continues not to pull its weight on defense,
how can you be so confident that there isn't some kind of
diplomatic or political cost, particularly in that relationship?
Clark: I'd like to see the costs spelled out. You see,
I have very little time for that kind of commentary. New Zealand
has not only pulled its weight, it's over-pulled its weight
in conflicts throughout the last century and before, so you
won't find any sympathy in New Zealand for those sorts of
jibes from across the Tasman. In fact, you'll find a considerable
amount of resentment. In the end, there will always be a fundamental
difference of perspective between New Zealand and Australia
on defense, whoever is in government. It has to be borne in
mind that the last New Zealand government actually cut defense
spending by about 30%. One of the problems we face is that
it's taken so much money out that you really can't put it
back in without reprioritizing defense to the very top of
your spending priorities, which would be ridiculous, given
the benign environment that we're living in. So, you've got
Australia- which is a medium-sized power-looking west to the
Indian Ocean and north into Southeast Asia. You've got New
Zealand-which has no power at all-looking west across the
Tasman and north into the Pacific. It's just a different strategic
situation, and that's why we don't accept the notion of a
single strategic entity. Where you stand depends on where
you sit.
TIME:
When you look to the north, though, and see the instability
that seems to be creeping into South Pacific countries, does
your assessment of that environment seem less benign?
Clark: No, because it doesn't threaten the security
of New Zealand. It is a concern in the sense that it is a
blemish on the good name of the South Pacific, which is why
we're looking now at how we might proactively design a strategy
for New Zealand in the South Pacific, which there's never
been.
TIME:
We saw some scenes of Maori activists visiting Fiji, saying,
"If we had the same sort of numbers we'd be doing the same
sort of things in New Zealand."
Clark: Those individuals would, yes. I don't think
it will have a trigger effect here. There are small groups
in New Zealand like those who went to Fiji who think that
way, but I wouldn't think that view has traction.
TIME:
Not now, but what about in 20 years?
Clark: That's entirely a matter of how we conduct our
society. It's one of the greatest challenges we face, not
to have indigenous people and Pacific migrants as permanently
dispossessed minorities with a huge sense of grievance.
TIME:
Tell us about your "closing the gaps" strategy.
Clark: It's about a more cohesive society in the future.
I think that across social groups, there's a high level of
appreciation that we can't let New Zealand become a ghetto
of disadvantage, and that there is an obligation on us to
address opportunity for Maori and Pacific peoples. We haven't
got the cash to go around increasing benefits. We're emphasizing
opportunity through education, employment, and we're building
the capacity of organizations in these communities to define
needs and to meet them.
TIME:
How is your relationship with the business community?
Clark: There are ideologues and there are pragmatists.
Some people are so rich they can spend the next 21Ž2 years
in a war of attrition against the government. There are others
who would quite like to get on with making their business
function, and we do deal with them.
TIME:
Is business confidence a delicate flower that needs nurturing?
Clark: Business can talk itself into a blue funk. It's
starting to talk itself out of it now because it was so ridiculous.
There wasn't anything other than a political beat-up to justify
the blue funk. The forecasts for growth are fine. Of course
they could always be better, but they're actually not bad
at all. Booming export sector, booming tourism sector, booming
IT sector.
TIME:
Do you get a sense that you are in competition for global
funds, and for multinationals seeking concessions such as
are available in Australian states?
Clark: Yes, but at least we're in the game now. We
weren't in it before. New Zealand has stood by while Australia's
poached its businesses. Now there's a bit more aggressive
recruitment going on, and you're starting to see some reverse
flow, too-even without incentives. New Zealand is at something
of a disadvantage because of its size. Our biggest companies
don't rate on a radar screen internationally, so you have
to create an interest in New Zealand that wouldn't be there
on the basis of its size and importance. That's why I think
publicity and promotions-you do it around an event like the
America's Cup. That's so important, because people who would
never have any other reason to come to New Zealand take an
interest, and actually like it. You get people who have a
lot of money to throw around with an interest which can be
stimulatory. But a small country in a globalized economy has
to work very hard to be noticed.
TIME:
Will it be to New Zealand's advantage if a place like Sydney
becomes more of a financial center and sucks in more money
and people and interest internationally?
Clark: No. We want more of it here. We don't want to
be just the branch economy. The challenge for us is to work
out what our niche is, what are the kinds of companies that
can grow big and still want to be in New Zealand. The reality
is that they are going to be run by people who, for life-style
reasons, want to be here, stay here, bring their families
up, or come back here. Or they are going to be companies connected
with the primary production base and added value, biotechnology,
who have a reason to stay because the raw material is here.
But we've had the experience, as have other small countries,
of companies getting too big for home and heading off.
TIME:
How confident are you-with the Greens as a coalition partner,
and in a party with strong environmental instincts of its
own-about picking your way through the biotech issues?
Clark: I think it's very important that we don't get
scared off using the term biotechnology, because genetic modification
is a small subset of that area. Biotechnology clearly has
a major part to play in the future of New Zealand industries,
so we can't be scared of it. Science is part of the future.
TIME:
On national identity, it is sometimes said across the Tasman
that New Zealand should be another state of Australia.
Clark: It won't happen. The two societies are very
closely linked-we've got virtually free trade, a common labor
market. But statehood, no.
TIME:
What about the question of a New Zealand republic?
Clark: You know, the monarchy doesn't have a lot of
relevance here, but nor is there a lot of energy to do anything
about it. There's considerably more energy to do something
about it in Australia. I think when Australia gets a new government,
which probably isn't that far away, it will get a republic.
That will increase the level of interest in New Zealand. I
asked the Canadian Prime Minister if there was any pressure
for Canada to become a republic. He said "Not at the moment,
but if Australia does it, and then New Zealand does it, it'll
become an issue for us." It will happen in my lifetime, but
I intend to live for a long time.
TIME:
If poorly handled, what capacity does the republic debate
have to worsen race relations, since the Treaty seems to be
a part of any constitutional discussion in New Zealand?
Clark: Well, that's the obstacle. You can't move forward
till you've resolved certain issues about the Treaty. So that's
something we're looking at-how we define the role of the Treaty
in New Zealand law. Until we sort out some of those issues,
the issue of a republic is not going to get a look-in, and
if you dealt with it in a cavalier fashion, you would get
a tremendous backlash from Maori, and rightly so. What they've
got at the moment is the best on offer: a treaty between the
Crown and the hapu of Maoridom. If the Crown disappears, what's
the deal? So that's the debate. Australia doesn't face these
issues, because it doesn't have a treaty with its indigenous
people.
TIME:
How much of a problem is it that there is currently an exodus-net
migration out of New Zealand?
Clark: Look, it comes and goes, and ever since the
tail end of the Asian crisis flicked New Zealand in mid-'98,
it's been net outflow. It will only stop when people see there's
more of a future here.
TIME:
As an optimist about the country, what is your message to
the people who are leaving?
Clark: The message is that the life-style is without
parallel, and that in a globalized age of information technology,
you can be entrepreneurial anywhere in the world and do well.
There's no reason you can't be a leading software writer,
a leading product designer, from New Zealand-and many are-but
we've got to get that image across to ourselves, build that
confidence in ourselves that these things can be done from
New Zealand. By all means, go out and try the world. It's
exciting, it's interesting, but actually, there's a lot going
for New Zealand, too.
TIME:
Is New Zealand a country that has difficulty with self-confidence?
Clark:We've got a very strong literary tradition, and
perhaps that's because New Zealand is a country that's searching
for its soul. We do analyze ourselves to death. Maybe we're
trying to work through our relationship between Maori and
those who came after. There's no agreement that this is a
multicultural society. There's a bicultural foundation and
people are trying to work out how everyone who came later
fits into that. We're a nation in search of an identity, but
it's quite exciting. I don't regard it as a problem. It's
a challenge.
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August 14, 2000
| NO. 32
C
O V E R
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Woods wasn't at ease with celebrity, but he learned to cope
S
O U T H P A C I F I C
AUSTRALIA:
Olympic Police Take Their Marks
Officials promise a safe Games, with a little help from friends
NEW
ZEALAND: Soul Searching
Prime Minister Helen Clark talks about the state of the nation
B
U S I N E S S
FOOTBALL:
Golden Goals
Soccer clubs are spending crazy sums to buy top players
A
R T S
ART: Chardin's
genius for painting things as they are
THEATER:
Cameron Mackintosh's musical spellbinder
MUSIC:
King Benny Nawahi, wizard of the steel guitar
CINEMA:
With Chopper, crime does pay
In
Wonder Boys, Michael Douglas acts his age
ONLINE:
Websites that scout out good music
TRAVELER'S
ADVISORY
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