GREG SMITH-SABA

TIME: When you were arrested by the FBI at the Perry, Oklahoma, County Courthouse, there were allegations that all you would tell the authorities was your "Rank, file and serial number?" Is that true?

MCVEIGH: I was originally arrested by Trooper Hanger, and he read me my Miranda rights concerning the charges he had pulled me over for. I believed that the Miranda rights were something you listen to. You had the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. When the FBI asked me down for questioning at the Perry County Courthouse, they asked me if I wanted to speak with one (attorney). And what I immediately did was . . . I did not put it in those terms, my Miranda rights, but what I said was "I need to wait for an attorney, I need to get a lawyer."

TIME: Weren't you afraid that they were going to shoot you? (During the walk from the courthouse.) Isn't that what you told us? That there was somebody out on the main thinking, "Here's the one, let's get him!"

MCVEIGH: In hindsight, I recognize the reason they probably did it. To get the photographs. At that time, absolutely. That was the only thing in my mind. I'll tell you exactly the contributing factors of how I looked when I was coming out of that courthouse. First, I had been inside for two days. Next I recognized the crowd. I recognized that the crowd was pretty much too far away to be a real threat from something such as pistol. So my gaze immediately went to the trees and there were a couple of buildings off to the right. And I immediately unconsciously clicked into something called the thousand-yard stare, you focus on everything in your environment. At that time, you're gathering information with all your senses. You're listening for every sound. The most I could do if someone tried to do something is jump to the side. By that time, I was used to it. I think there was nothing I could do about it. If you look at Terry (Nichols') face, he's got the same face I got. So it shows that it's a natural reaction. You're being fed to the lions basically. If have to throw in that TIME's cover didn't help with that at all. They fell right into the usage of that.

TIME: If you could meet privately with FBI Director Louis Freeh, what would you say to him?

MCVEIGH: I'd say, I think we'd better order out for pizza because it would be a lengthy meeting.

TIME: What would be your principal complaint about the Bureau? Obviously you're unhappy about their ways.

MCVEIGH: Oh yes, their actions in Waco, Texas, were wrong. And I'm not fixated on Waco. It's a very good example of things they have done, like leaks of false allegations. And I guess I'd ask him if that's his modus operandi, if that's his status quo.

Life in Prison

TIME: What have you disliked about being incarcerated?

MCVEIGH: Since, of course, it's been the first time I've ever been incarcerated in my life, it's opened my eyes to the arbitrary way in which they take people's rights away. Being pre-trial, common sense would tell you that you should have equal rights of those who have been convicted of crimes and who are felons, if not greater rights because you are presumed innocent. I've been presumed innocent here for coming up on year.

TIME: Do you have trouble sleeping at night?

MCVEIGH: I have extreme trouble sleeping at night. My cell pad is five-foot across by eight-feet deep, and half of that is taken up by another eight feet, is taken up by the toilet, and another eight is by the table. When they put me in my cell at night they move the camera within three feet of my head. You can see me at all angles and I sleep with the knowledge that this camera is literally, and I mean this literally I'm not exaggerating, is hovering three feet above my head. Additionally, then they say, for the camera to operate properly, they must have the lights on. Well, they turn the light off in the cell, but the light in the hall is only four feet away. It's like sleeping in the daytime. That's one of the things we're trying to negotiate with the warden in Englewood. Our basic opinion is that they have just overreacted to the conditions. They say they want to monitor us 24 hours in case there is the risk of me committing suicide. Well, we tried to tell them that I've been here a year, and they haven't seen any indication of that whatsoever.

TIME: We understand you've seen a psychiatrist within the last eight weeks?

MCVEIGH: In the last couple of weeks. The conditions were getting to me. A camera 20 hours a day and the other four you have a guy sitting within four or five feet of you . . . just watching you. There is a complete, total lack of privacy to do anything . . . anything, go to the bathroom, scratch. That kind of thing. And it was starting to pile up again, the petty harassments were starting to add on to that and I got to vent someone. There is no other way to vent. Rigorous physical exercise people vent with. Well, I don't have that. I'm in a 15 foot by 15 foot cage with a concrete floor. You can't run, you can't do sit-ups. There is no way you can do vigorous physical exercise out there. So I had no way of getting rid of my stress.

TIME: Do you suffer from depression?

MCVEIGH: It comes and goes. I think part of it, of course, is obviously the environment I'm in, the charges I'm facing. And it's magnified by the punitive and restrictive conditions they throw upon me, such as the commissary. You've got convicted inmates here, they are officially felons, and the BP has full right to take their rights away. They're out there every day drinking Cokes and eating ice cream. They deny those basic simple basic aspects of life to me for security reasons.

TIME: Do you miss your family?

MCVEIGH: Being in the service helped me in having what I have to go through now. However, I do miss having open and free discussions with them. Here, we can make social phone calls, however, they'll say we'll let you talk to your family, but we may use it against you because they record it. More in that respect I miss any social contact at all. That's why I'm in a good mood when I come in and have interviews like this. When I go out for rec, there is no one out there except two guards. Even other inmates that are in administrative detention they get to rec with 10 or 20 other guys that are in the same unit. So they get one hour a day, I get nothing . . .

TIME: Have you seen your father since you've been in jail?

MCVEIGH: The FBI brought him in the second day or third day I was here. They had two or three Bureau of Prisons guards stand in the next room, which it wasn't really a room but was separated by a cage, and four or five FBI agents standing outside the room. It was obviously some kind of coercion tactic or something. And I said, "Dad listen, my attorneys have advised me not to say anything right now, because they're jumping on everything I say. So you can talk to me, but I really don't want to say much to you."