Israel at 60

TIME correspondent Jamil Hamad is a Palestinian living in Bethlehem, where his family settled as refugees after being moved out of their village near Ramla in what is now Israel, sixty years ago. Uri Avnery is an Israeli peace activist who previously served in the Knesset and as a Haganah commando in Israel's War of Independence. They met recently in Tel Aviv to recall their respective experiences of the traumatic days of Israel's birth.

Avnery: For us soldiers, the events of independence were an irrelevance. That night we had to attack a village near Ramla. We tuned into the radio, and I was only curious to hear what they'd call the new state. I'd have preferred it as 'The State of Jerusalem'.

Hamad: My village wasn't far from Ramla. The fighting was coming closer, and my family decided to leave. The Israeli soldiers came with trucks and took us away from our land. I was only a boy, then. The Israelis claimed it was all an empty land.

Avnery: Zionist ideology never recognized the existence of the Palestinian people. The whole idea was to take possession of an empty country. They were very idealistic pioneers, but how could they set up an equal society when they were dispossessing other people? So, they ignored Arabs.

The 1948 war was an ethnic war. When you have two or more people claiming the same land, the aim isn't victory, but to conquer the land and empty it of the other side. There was ethnic cleansing on both sides. For the Jews, there was no alternative. It was more than just losing a war.

Hamad: The tragic thing about the Palestinians was that we had no leaders courageous enough to deal with political realities.

Avnery: Yes. There were six Arabs to every Jew, but we were organized and had strong leaders. It's a myth that the Arabs left the country during the war. They were pushed from neighborhood to neighborhood, village to village.

Hamad: My family was pushed to Bethlehem.

Avnery: If you told us 60 years ago that war would still dominate our life, it would have seemed like madness. Back then, the idea was that the Arabs would get used to us and we'd have peace. Over 80% of Israelis believe that we want peace but the Arabs are against us. I think it goes back to our bad conscience. Today, we're at square one, exactly where we were 60 years ago. The settlements are still going on, and they're being built in such a way as to make a contiguous Palestinian state impossible.

Hamad: At first, the Palestinians didn't give a damn about a state. This came later, with the Arab rejections of the Palestinians and as a psychological reaction to a Jewish state. Then came Yasser Arafat and the other Palestinians exiled in Tunis. They had no plans, no administration. The Palestinians failed to study Israeli society. They had this wrong idea that every Israeli is a Zionist. They didn't have any strategy for peace with Israel.

Avnery (laughing): I'm more optimistic about the Palestinians than you are, Jamil.

Hamad: The Arab mind may have recognized Israel, but its heart hasn't.

Avnery: The Palestinians are surviving under extreme circumstances. They're faced off against Israel, which enjoys worldwide sympathy, and the huge imbalance of forces. But today, there's no leadership. Neither Fatah nor Hamas has any strategy beyond survival and armed resistance. If a Palestinian state does happen, it will probably be under an Islamic flag.

Hamad: An Islamic state would be disaster. Israel would always be at arms with the Palestinians. The Palestinians need to be given a chance of statehood with no interference from Arab states and with an international administration.

Avnery: Also, the relation between the U.S. and Israel has to change. This domination by the [pro-Israel] lobby isn't doing any favors to Israel. The lobbyists are pushing for wrong things from the White House. It's like encouraging a drunken friend to drive. There's no option by a reasonable peace, one based on a two-state solution, with a confederation between the two.

Hamad: But for now, it seems as though both sides are being driven by a strong instinct of self-destruction.

Avnery: Maybe, just maybe, when all other options are exhausted, they'll come to their senses and do the right thing.