The Interview

Posted Sunday, December 22, 2002; 4:31 a.m. EST
On a Saturday morning in December, TIME brought Coleen Rowley of the FBI, Cynthia Cooper of WorldCom and Sherron Watkins of Enron together to talk, for the first time, about their parallel experiences over the past year. The women had never met before, but over breakfast they compared stories and marveled at the similarities: their motivations for exposing the flaws of their institutions, their shock at having their secret actions exposed and then condemned in some quarters, and their enduring love for the ideals of their workplaces. They also discovered they shared much in their personal lives, and they enjoyed cheering one another on. The following is an excerpt of their conversation...

TIME: How do you explain why so many people at your organizations did not do what you did?
WATKINS: I think it's the value system at the top. [Cooper and Rowley are nodding.] It's very important that the leaders set the tone. Remember the Tylenol-tampering scare? It threw the company into a tailspin. [But] the chairman of Johnson & Johnson came in, supposedly, and said, "I just looked at our value statement. We have got to do the right thing. We are pulling every bottle of Tylenol off the shelves worldwide." It cost them $300 million to do, but they set the standard for tamper-resistant products, and in the long run he saved consumer loyalty.

TIME: Do you believe you three have become standard setters?
ROWLEY: That's the chairman of the board. I am way down the order. All you can do from the lower echelon is try.

TIME: Why didn't those at the upper echelons try? Or admit their mistakes?
WATKINS: It's ingrained in human nature to fight and argue. My 3-year-old [Marion] won't say she's sorry. She'll sit in time-out forever.
ROWLEY: It's even worse in the U.S., with the adversary system and hiring lawyers. No one does anything wrong anymore.

TIME: If the culture comes from the top, how is it that you three didn't fall prey to it?
COOPER: I think it comes back to values and ethics that you learn through your life. My mother has been a tremendous influence on me: "Never allow yourself to be intimidated; always think about the consequences of your actions." I think this is a wake-up call for the country. There's a responsibility for all Americans—teachers, mothers, fathers, college professors, corporate people—to help and make sure the moral and ethical fabric of the country is strong.
ROWLEY: [Stands up and bursts into applause] I don't care if you're an FBI agent or a priest or a government official. We are all human, and we are all susceptible to any number of vices and mistakes. All we can do is try to uncover and correct them.
WATKINS: If you just say, "I have this admission or I did this wrong, I am sorry," human nature is to say, "I understand."

TIME: Are you known as people who admit when they're wrong?
ROWLEY: [After a pause] I'm trying to think if I have ever been wrong. [Laughter all around.] I don't think I am exceptional. I think everyone makes mistakes.

TIME: You've all spoken about the importance of role models. Who were yours?
COOPER: I would say Oseola McCarty [the Mississippi laundress who donated a $150,000 scholarship to the University of Southern Mississippi in 1995], Oprah Winfrey, my mother. And Barbara Bush—she's very comfortable with who she is.
WATKINS: Certainly my mother is still setting the example for me to follow. My parents divorced when I was 14. Divorce wasn't that common back then, especially in the Lutheran Church. [My mother] said, "I am going up there and kneeling, and I dare them not to give me Communion."

TIME: And did they?
WATKINS: Yes, they did.
ROWLEY: Right now, I would say that Iranian professor [Hashem Aghajari] who has been sentenced to death [on charges of blasphemy after he gave a speech calling on people not to follow religious leaders blindly]. [But in the past, it was my maternal] grandparents. They didn't have running water, a bathroom or indoor plumbing until my grandfather was 93. My grandma was orphaned at 11 and went to work to support her brothers and sisters. And my father was orphaned at age 2. He became the town's postman and walked 14 miles a day delivering the mail. You see somebody who didn't have opportunities— and I agree that being disadvantaged is very difficult—but what do you do about it? You have to try hard. Even if you can't win, try hard.

TIME: You are role models to some people. [All of them shake their heads. Rowley crosses her arms; Cooper screws up her face.] Why are you all so uncomfortable with this?
COOPER: We don't feel like we are heroes. I feel like I did my job.
ROWLEY: One of these days, maybe I will do something to deserve awards, and I have got 40 years to try ... The May 21 letter from me? I am repulsed by the idea of thinking that makes me a hero or anything like that ... If I jump into an icy river and save a child, and I am lucky enough to get out, then fine. I would hope that I would do that, but maybe not. Maybe I would be a chicken.

1 | 2 | Next >>

Get the Magazine — Try 4 Issues Free!

Disconnected: Deceit and Betrayal at WorldCom By Lynne W. Jeter Price: $19.96

	PHOTO ESSAY People Who Mattered in 2002 A general, a bishop, a bride and a groom: just a few of the other men and women who made news this year NOTEBOOK In Memoriam From a baseball legend to the madame of manners, TIME pays tribute to those who died this year ENTERTAINMENT Best & Worst 2002 TIME picks the best and worst movies, books, music and more BUSINESS 2002 Global Influentials TIME profiles 15 up-and-coming business executives around the globe