CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah.
ROB REINER
I'm thinking about it.
CHARLIE ROSE
I would say...
ROB REINER
You weren't paying attention here, Charlie.
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
If you did all the films that you mention of Brando's, except for The Godfather, the were all early in his career.
NORM PERLSTINE
When you're talking about the actor of the century, yes. That's a fair question, and Hepburn, uh, for better or worse, made a decision to put her personal life clearly below that of her professional life and her craft. Where I think Brando really did the opposite.
ROBERT HUGHES
Exactly.
CHARLIE ROSE
All right, let me move to television. Uh, a medium I know and love. I don't know, I don't know who to start with here, but I start with, I'll start with you, Cheryl. In a sense that Lucille Ball is one, clearly, person who had a huge impact, if you look at what sitcoms, the impact they've had on television, she in a sense defined what a sitcom is about. Not only because of the huge star presence she had, but also the way that show was shot, and the rest of it. Other candidates?
CHERYL CROW
I think you have, I think you have to start at the very beginning, like at Milton Berle.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah.
CHERYL CROW
Perhaps. He was Mr. Television.
CHARLIE ROSE
Sid Ceasar.
CHERYL CROW
Sid Ceasar. Certainly. Um, and then you get further into it, if you're going by the talk show you have to look at Steve Allen, who, later on, was preceded by Johnny Carson, certainly. Um, gosh, so many greats. But I think, I think Milton Berle was, basically sort of where it all began. And then, with Desi Arnaz, I mean, we talked [about] that a little bit. Desi Arnaz being sort of the, the producer of sitcom, sit, sitcom TV.
NORM PERLSTINE
Yeah, sitcoms on television.
CHARLIE ROSE
Norm?
NORM PERLSTINE
Well, at the risk of having Rob agree with me on this, I think uh, I would, I would actually go to a Sid Ceasar, your show of shows, and the whole group of people that really defined comedy through that, including Carl Reiner, Larry Gelbart, uh, Mel Brooks, uh...
ROBERT HUGHES
Neil Simon.
NORM PERLSTINE
...and Neil Simon, and...
ROBERT HUGHES
Woody Allen.
CHARLIE ROSE
Well think of writing for your show.
ROBERT HUGHES
Woody Allen?
CHARLIE ROSE
Right. And all of whom then went on to really define, uh, television, and particularly comedy on television over the last 50 years.
ROB REINER
I would agree with Sid Ceasar, I mean, he's, to me, you know, Saturday Night Live is not here, if not for Sid Ceasar. And all of the people that, you know, have been spawned by it. But also Steve Allen, I think, very important. If it's not for Steve Allen, you don't have Jack Parr, Johnny Carson, and Jay Leno. You don't have David Letterman, you don't have, I hate to say, don't have Jerry Springer, or Sally, Sally Jesse Raphael. Charlie Rose. I'm telling you, this man created the idea of talk show. Of the talk show.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Right, right.
ROB REINER
I mean he was the first man to put a two, you know, to have people come on and talk. And you know, Charlie, I mean, oh, anybody who has done a talk show will, the antecedent is back to...
CHARLIE ROSE
Thank you Steve, thank you Steve, thank you Steve.
ROB REINER
And I would say, I would say, again, to, not to blow smoke up somebody, uh (LAUGHTER) but, but Norman Lear, I also believe, has a tremendous impact on television.
CHARLIE ROSE
Because?
ROB REINER
Because he took situation comedy, and, and made it socially relevant. The first person to do that, I would say, before that, my father, I mean, you know, was my father, but, he took the...
CHARLIE ROSE
The Dick Van Dyke Show.
ROB REINER
The Dick Van Dyke Show, he took situation comedy and made it real. Made it, sit--, the situations be an extensions of what happens in real families and, on the, in the work place. So he was the person did that, and then Norman Lear.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Well, I wonder about Bill Cosby.
CHARLIE ROSE
Ah.
ROB REINER
I put him in comedians.
CHERYL CROW
I did the same.
ROB REINER
I put him in comedians as all-time, but certainly tel-, but he didn't, yeah, but he could be television, either way.
NORM PERLSTINE
Yeah.
CHARLIE ROSE
Uh, Robert?
ROBERT HUGHES
I pass on this one, because you see, I never saw a television broadcast until I was 21.
CHARLIE ROSE
Do you own a television?
ROBERT HUGHES
Well, I sort of do but I rarely switch it on, and I, I think the television is something that you appear on, but don't necessarily watch.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
ROB REINER
So you won't be watching this broadcast.
ROBERT HUGHES
Oh, you bet I will!
(LAUGHTER)
NORM PERLSTINE
If you're talking influence on the culture, and I don't know if this is the right category, you certainly have to think about Oprah Winfrey.
CHERYL CROW
Right.
CHARLIE ROSE
Because she did what?
NORM PERLSTINE
Because I think she speaks to just millions of people, uh, across the country and I think really, it just articulates a vision for an awful lot of people who don't have...
CHARLIE ROSE
But if you talk about Oprah Winfrey, you've got to talk about Phil Donahue.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Phil Donahue. Correct.
CHARLIE ROSE
In a sense who was there, and doing something important, and interesting, in day time television before, I mean, without Phil Donahue...
NORM PERLSTINE
I think she just transcended television, I guess what I'm saying, is that she has taken the medium and expanded beyond that to a point where she really has an influence over the culture, whether it's books, if she wanted to do politics, if she ever wants to do a magazine, we would do it in a minute...
CHARLIE ROSE
You can't. You mean...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
The Oprah Magazine.
CHARLIE ROSE
Well, there is a Martha Stewart's Living that could be an Oprah anything.
ROBERT HUGHES
Oprah anything.
NORM PERLSTINE
Oprah anything.
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
What about news and documentaries? I think, of the late Fred Friendly, and Edward R. Murrow, and Walter Cronkite, I mean...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Right.
CHARLIE ROSE
Lyndon Johnson said, when you talk about impact, Lyndon Johnson said that when Walter Cronkite went to Vietnam and said, uh, after the Tet offensive, we're not winning this thing, that that's when the war turned, for Lyndon Johnson. He said, if I don't have Walter, I don't have America.
ROBERT HUGHES
Now...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
There are some people who say that the death of political theater has to do with the birth of documentary television.
CHARLIE ROSE
So that we don't have political theater anymore at all, because documentaries are the source.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Took, took over, yeah.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah.
ROB REINER
But you bring this up, I didn't know that this was going to be part of arts and entertainment, but it's interesting you bring it up, because that line is very blurred right now.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Right.
ROB REINER
Between what is news and what is documentary, and what is entertainment.
CHARLIE ROSE
Right.
ROB REINER
And I think it's a little dangerous to talk about Edward R. Murrow, and Friendly, and, and Walter Cronkite in arts and entertainment, because, in their day, they would certainly tell you, that they were not part, they were not entertainers. They were not part of entertainment.
NORM PERLSTINE
Okay.
ROB REINER
That line has become very blurred, in the last 20, 25 years. I think to everybody's detriment.
(APPLAUSE)
CHERYL CROW
Well if you're, it is such a blurry line. I mean, you could throw out Ted Turner's name, he's had such an impact...
NORM PERLSTINE
On television. Yeah, on news show.
CHERYL CROW
Well yeah, globally, and, with news as its own entertainment medium.
CHARLIE ROSE
I should say that, I mean, see, this is where this becomes increasingly difficult. If you talk about television, it's hard not to talk about, uh, we would talk, when you're talking about television, not to think about uh...
NORM PERLSTINE
Walt Disney.
CHARLIE ROSE
Well, Disney.
NORM PERLSTINE
Or William Taylor.
CHARLIE ROSE
Or Ted Turner, and, there are no neat categories here. We're going to do one of these about business and titans, as you'll see, somewhere around here. builders and titans. And therefore, you think of people like Disney, and you think about Turner is a builder and a Titan, and Paley is too, uh, but at the same time, within the general umbrella of television, those names come out, when you think about impact. Let me move to a clear arts and entertainment category, theater. We mentioned Olivier as a powerful acting force. Who else, in the world of theater? Robert.
ROBERT HUGHES
Um...
CHARLIE ROSE
Who's on your list?
ROBERT HUGHES
Oh, very high on my list would be, we're talking about America, or the world?
