ROBERT HUGHES
You know, if I could throw into the hat the name of a
musician who is not a popular musician but nevertheless a very great
one, Igor Stravinsky. The distinguishing character, you know, and
definitely the most influential, but, at least from my understanding of
it, composer of the 20th century. And yet, Stravinsky's work takes in
so much from popular culture, you know, I mean, he, he himself said,
that it was his first exposure to, to American black jazz, that heaved
him after the Russian orchestral tradition.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
And last night I actually saw Wynton Marsalis' version of the Soldier's
Tale, called the Fiddler's Song...
ROBERT HUGHES
There you are, yes.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
So he's...
ROBERT HUGHES
And so in music things do rotate, they act upon one another, theme are
taken up, repeated, I mean it's structure, if you like, is, uh,
contrapuntal, uh, more contrapuntal in terms of (Overlapping voices).
CHARLIE ROSE
....century, you have to think of someone like Sinatra, the, who, I
mean, or, five decades of, uh, a body of work and an influence over,
over people, and certainly I think Aretha Franklin, and, uh, certainly,
since (Overlapping voices) the Motown sound and the impact that had, and
whether you give credit to the artist or the people like Barry Gordy and
others who, who were responsible for bringing it forward. Where do you,
what's the impact of Sinatra? I mean, if you made the case for Sinatra,
what would be the argument?
NORM PEARLSTINE
I think the argument for Sinatra would be that he was someone who
through music really, discussed romance, discussed life, discussed,
relationships, discussed generations, the ages, in a way,
that is different from others. I would also say that, you know,
beginning with his work with Dorsey, with the V-Discs, uh, through
the Capital years, through the Columbia years, the Reprise years, there
are just specific areas of work where whole new audiences came to
him and had an appreciation of him. So, to me, it is more than just the
brilliance of an artist over a fifty year period, rather than, or sixty
year period, rather than his, his influence on other musicians or
on the genre.
ROBERT HUGHES
Yeah.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
I was wondering, Cheryl, what you would think about Billie Holiday as a
person who would interpret a...
CHERYL CROW
See, I was, I think if you put Frank Sinatra...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
....songs of another genre, and gave it her own sort of spin.
CHERYL CROW
I was just going ready to say, if you, if you, if you look at Frank
Sinatra and you're looking at him as somebody who really impacted,
impacted the mainstream but did not make any great innovating changes in
music, you, you almost have to look at Billie Holiday as one of the
greatest interpreters of all time, if you're looking at music as
story telling, and addressing love and relationship issues, you have to
look at Billie Holiday. Because, for me, she's one of the most
incredible...
ROB REINER
For me, the greatest jazz singer of all time...
CHERYL CROW
And Ella Fitzgerald.
ROB REINER
....is Ella Fitzgerald. I would say the greatest jazz singer of all
time is Ella Fitzgerald, and, then you also have to think about people
like Al Joleson.
CHERYL CROW
Yeah.
ROB REINER
I mean, he was in this century. Al Joleson, and George M. Cohan. And
these are people who had an enormous influence on, on, on music, and
theater, and, you know, it's impossible. It's...
CHERYL CROW
You get into writers, you get into Cole Porter, and you...(Overlapping
voices).
CHARLIE ROSE
Anybody have an idea, from the audience, what we're missing on in terms
of the world of music?
CHARLIE ROSE
The Beatles! All right, let's talk about the Beatles.
ROB REINER
I mentioned the Beatles, but they were in passing. (Overlapping voices)
I was going to, put the Beatles as composers, Lennon and McCartney.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah.
ROB REINER
As composers, because, yes, obviously the group, the Beatles, had a
tremendous impact on the culture, but they didn't invent rock 'n' roll,
certainly.
CHERYL CROW
But, if you're talking about innovators, you're talking about a band,
putting their chemistry aside, and what they, how they overtook the
mainstream, and changed music, you have to look at, even technically,
the way they recorded on a four-track, and the way they
progressed, and they way they experimented, and it changes...
ROB REINER
Then you could say George Martin, then. Because he had a lot of...
CHERYL CROW
But John Lennon and Paul McCartney were definitely, also, really,
certainly he should be thrown in there, but, they changed the way record
making...
ROB REINER
But as song writers, you have to definitely include them as all-time...
CHARLIE ROSE
What did we say about Gershwin, and people like that,
who...?
ROB REINER
Right, invented, geniuses.
CHERYL CROW
All those (Overlapping voices)
ROBERT HUGHES
Geniuses.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Leonard Bernstein, somebody said..
CHERYL CROW
Leonard Bernstein...
AUDIENCE MEMBER
The Rolling Stones.
CHARLIE ROSE
The Rolling Stones.
ROB REINER
Great rock 'n' roll band.
CHARLIE ROSE
A great band. (Overlapping voices)
ROB REINER
Best rock 'n' roll band of the century.
CHERYL CROW
Yeah.
ROBERT HUGHES
Let's hear it for Stravinsky again. Stravinsky again.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERT HUGHES
I'm sorry, I don't want to sound like some peeling pseudo-intellectual,
but I really...(Overlapping voices).
CHARLIE ROSE
Robert, no one will ever call you a pseudo-intellectual.
(LAUGHTER)
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
We are tending, now, as we're talking about music, to be talking about
our own time, so...
ROB REINER
Yes. We have more of a connection with our own time than we do, I mean,
we can look at political leaders, and make determinations, not in our
own time, but it's hard to talk about the impact on culture, when you
weren't in that time period, you know what I'm saying?
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
It's also that we're in this....
ROB REINER
You could talk about the art of, you can't talk about the impact on
culture.
CHERYL CROW
Well...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
We're also an incredible, we're in an amazing technological
moment, and I, in a way, I wonder if we can really separate art from
technology in that way, if the work of the artist is to reach the hearts
of millions, something has happened, in the fact that so many more,
we have the equipment to reach so more people.
ROBERT HUGHES
Suppose the work of the artist is not to reach the hearts of millions?
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Uh, that would be...
ROBERT HUGHES
But rather to make something as perfectly as he or she can, his
qualities will be...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
What if it reaches the hearts of millions in spite of that?
ROBERT HUGHES
Great if it does.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Great if it does.
ROBERT HUGHES
Great if it does, yeah.
CHARLIE ROSE
But I would assume you would not define the work of the artist to reach
the hearts of millions, but to reach perfection as best he or she can.
ROBERT HUGHES
That's my tendency, yeah.
CHARLIE ROSE
Your tendency, yes. Yes.
ROB REINER
Reach perfection? You think about that?
ROBERT HUGHES
To get as good as you can within the limits of your own medium.
ROBERT HUGHES
To push the envelope within that medium, to...
ROB REINER
I think the artist, I mean, I don't know, I think the artist is somebody
who tries to get in touch with some part of themselves, and
represent it as honestly as possible, and thereby make some kind of
statement about the human condition, or...
ROBERT HUGHES
Yes.
CHERYL CROW
I don't think Bob Dylan sat down to make something perfect.
ROB REINER
No, no. Not about perfection, it's about... (Overlapping voices).
CHARLIE ROSE
Well, what do you think Bob Dylan set down to do?
ROB REINER
...perfecting to something in your soul, uh, that's honest.
CHERYL CROW
I think it was, he was a commentator. He looked at something, he
couldn't help it, he sat down and wrote about it. You know, he, that's
the way it came out, it was this, is was expression, it was
communication.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
So he wanted to communicate. Communication. (Overlapping voices)
CHERYL CROW
I think he reached perfection, I'm not saying he didn't.
NORM PEARLSTINE
If you're talking about people of the century, it seems to me you have
the right to ask that the artist reach his or her perfection, and also
impact the culture. I don't think, I think if it's either or, then they
shouldn't be on that list.
ROBERT HUGHES
I don't think it is either or. But in some cases, you're talking
about a much wider section of the culture, than in others. I mean,
there's no way for instance, that you could claim that only Matisse ever
reached as many people as Bob Dylan did, you know, but the, and so in
some respects...
ROB REINER
Well Bob Dylan wasn't quite as good a painter, though.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERT HUGHES
That's true.
ROB REINER
If he had have been a better painter, or if the other guy did...
ROBERT HUGHES
Well, Frank Sinatra is a great painter.
ROB REINER
Matisse, you know...
ROBERT HUGHES
Yeah, yeah.
ROB REINER
Everybody must get stoned, maybe...
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
Well, that brings me to our final category.
ROB REINER
Really?
CHARLIE ROSE
Which is, art! (Laughing)
ROB REINER
Wait a minute! I want to see this segue. Let's see how this is going to
work.
CHARLIE ROSE
John Philip Souza! As a, uh, very good.
(OFF MIKE)
CHERYL CROW
Irving Berlin!
ROB REINER
Irving Berlin.
CHARLIE ROSE
Who else?
(OFF MIKE)
CHERYL CROW
Aaron Copland.
CHARLIE ROSE
Who?
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Ziegfeld! Exactly. Flo Ziegfeld.
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Madonna!
CHERYL CROW
Madonna. Well...
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
I heard a demur, here. Let me, let me move, we want your
participation, and I don't want to cut it off. But let me move into
art and we'll come back. Uh, Picasso?
ROBERT HUGHES
Oh, for sure.
CHARLIE ROSE
No question.
ROBERT HUGHES
No question.
CHARLIE ROSE
Now Matisse painted in this century, too.
ROBERT HUGHES
Matisse is another very great artist who painted in this century, and he
would be right on the top of the list, too.
CHARLIE ROSE
Choosing between Picasso and Matisse, it's Picasso all the way.
ROBERT HUGHES
No, I don't think it is Picasso all the way. Um, this is the
difficulty, it's like, you know, saying, uh, do you like fish, or do you
like meat? I mean, the, sometimes one, sometimes the other.
NORM PEARLSTINE
You have to choose.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah, exactly. Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
You have to choose. Those are the rules.
ROBERT HUGHES
Under pressure.
ROB REINER
There are rules in this game, and you have to adhere to them.
ROBERT HUGHES
Under protest with tremendous reluctance, I would choose Picasso,
because his social impact for a start, was so much greater, you know,
we're talking about that criterion of, you know, I think, it is the
fundamental difficulty, I might say, that the static visual
arts have had in this century, is that because of competition from other
media, they lost the kind of social image forming power that
they had in the 19th. I mean it was possible for Corbet(?) to paint a
picture which would, you know, uh, you know, incite people to something
like rebellion. Um, but because we have all the competing visual fields
now, photography, television, and so on and so forth, uh, the, the
painting is, is sort of lost their primordial commemorative and myth
forming power.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
So it's the same (Inaudible) that the theater is in.
ROBERT HUGHES
Yes, exactly, it's the same predicament the theater is in. I mean, why
do we have to public sculpture, why is there been no worthwhile public
sculpture in America in the last several decades, except for Maya
Lin's Vietnam Memorial? Because, television has taken away the
credibility of the bronze leader on horseback. You can't
imagine a bronze statue of William Jefferson Clinton, if would mean
anything.
(LAUGHTER)
NORM PEARLSTINE
I could imagine quite a good one, I assume.
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
If you missed that...Norm said he could imagine quite a good one. And
so...
(LAUGHTER)
NORM PEARLSTINE
But then again, maybe, maybe it was plaster, and not bronze.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERT HUGHES
Yeah, it was a Pillsbury Dough Boy in bronze. Um...
NORM PEARLSTINE
You want to touch this, uh, Rob?
ROB REINER
No. I might.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERT HUGHES
It's got to be Picasso.
CHARLIE ROSE
Is it Picasso for you?
NORM PEARLSTINE
Yes, it is.
CHARLIE ROSE
It is.
NORM PEARLSTINE
It is Picasso.
ROB REINER
I think I'd go, go Picasso, and with a, with a, with an Andy Warhol, as
a nod towards popular culture, not as an artist, but as a nod towards
the impact on popular culture. And art. But not as an artist, but
Picasso, I would...
CHARLIE ROSE
Anna?
ANNA DEAVERE ROSE
I mean, uh, it's very tough in this category, because I think that, uh,
you know I...
CHARLIE ROSE
You know, I though this was easy, because it seemed to me that this is
one category, where one person did just dominate it. A, because, of the
longevity of his, I mean, how many works of art where there? 18,000
works.
ROB REINER
Yeah, he's the Michael Jordan of, of...
(LAUGHTER)
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
I agree, he's the Michael Jordan, but, you know what about the Dennis
Rodman's? And when you were talking about...
CHARLIE ROSE
Who would be Dennis Rodman?
ROB REINER
Well who would be the Dennis Rodman's?
(LAUGHTER)
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Well, when you're talking about Maya Lin...
NORM PEARLSTINE
Matisse would beat, no...
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
When you were talking about Maya Lin, and uh, the Vietnam Memorial, it,
it did make me think about, for example, Diego Rivera, and sort of, uh,
the big three, uh, Siguerros(?), and also Orrosco(?), and without them,
uh, we probably wouldn't have the idea of the public mural, right now,
or when you go into these great, big, uh, government buildings, because,
it's my understanding that they, they influenced in part, uh,
Roosevelt's WPA program.
ROBERT HUGHES
They certainly did, and particularly Rivera, I mean, Rivera executed
some of his biggest projects right here in America, in Detroit and
elsewhere.
NORM PEARLSTINE
What about Jackson Pollack?
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
CHARLIE ROSE
I was going to rephrase the question a little bit differently, if I may.
NORM PEARLSTINE
Yeah, go.
ROB REINER
He's the moderator. Do whatever you want.
CHARLIE ROSE
Uh, exactly. My show, even.
ROBERT HUGHES
Let's not stop you.
CHARLIE ROSE
Before you, if Jackson Pollack is your choice, so be it, but who is the
greatest American artist?
ROBERT HUGHES
Of the 20th century?
CHARLIE ROSE
Yes, sir.
ROBERT HUGHES
The most influential? Unquestionably Pollack.
CHARLIE ROSE
Unquestionably.
ROBERT HUGHES
Yeah, uh, which is not to say that he's, you know that he's in all
respects the best. I mean he's, his drawing is sometimes unbelievable
cackhad (?), until he found this wonderful way of, you know, draw--,
drawing, the line in air, by spilling it from a brush. Uh, the uh, no,
Pollack has had more influence, both upon America--, other American
artists, and about the way that Americans think about modern art. In
the 20th century, than any other painter that I can think of.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Is it t--, is it true that he had a relationship, a static relation with
Siguerros (?), and that that...?
ROBERT HUGHES
Yes, he did, as a matter of fact, he learned to great, do, you know, a
number of the abstract expressionists, and then from the Mexican
muralist, because, the Mexican muralists were working on a scale to
which they aspired. And also, you know, I mean, for instance, Philip
Gaston worked as an assistant to Siguerros, we must get into these
footnotes, but yes it's true, he was very influenced by Mexican art.
And uh, and also because he was so interested in the primitive. You
know.
