NORM PEARLSTINE
Bob, I can't believe you're going to let this hour go by without giving
uh, some response on Warhol.
ROBERT HUGHES
Oh, well, I don't think he belongs there at all. Come on, I mean, you
know, blind Freddie can see that, you know, the, the, the, look.
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Kandinsky, all right. Before we go to Kandinsky, good idea, I just want
to get your, bring you into the...
CHERYL CROW
Picasso.
CHARLIE ROSE
So it's a, full...
CHERYL CROW
You have, could we say, on architecture,
and I actually think his sculptures and his relation to the human body,
was, was very innovative.
CHARLIE ROSE
Well, I'm glad you opened architecture. Architects? Frank Lloyd
Wright? Who else?
NORM PEARLSTINE
Frank Lloyd Wright, Le Corbusier.
CHARLIE ROSE
The number one would be Frank Lloyd Wright?
NORM PEARLSTINE
Le Corbusier, for me. Just, in terms of influence on the culture, yes.
Yeah.
CHARLIE ROSE
Rob?
ROB REINER
Frank Lloyd Wright.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Frank Lloyd Wright.
CHARLIE ROSE
Why?
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Well, I think because of his ability for one thing, to include what
is natural, into the whole, scheme of what he's doing. You know,
thinking about falling river...
CHARLIE ROSE
Right.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
....the waterfall coming through the home, and so forth.
CHARLIE ROSE
Frank Lloyd Wright, here. The single most influential building of the
20th century.
ROBERT HUGHES
Oh, influence over what? I mean, the American skyscraper is certainly
the most influential in terms of myth, I mean the genre of the
skyscraper.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah.
ROBERT HUGHES
Because it's so, it, it for, it's such a powerful image of a certain
kind of Promethean daring, which was held to be at the center of, the
very center of mo--, you know, capitalist modernism. Among the most influential smaller buildings of the 20th century, I
think, undoubtedly, Wright's house in Chicago. There's quite a
list. I wanted to add Wright too, because, you see, he was the first
American architect to really influence European architects. I mean,
say, and some of them through Wright. I mean, if it hadn't been for
Wright's open plan houses, the idea of the open plan would never have
proliferated to the bath house. I mean, he, he published that in 1904,
and that was essentially what Gropius(?) and others were copying. You
know, and he had an enormous impact upon European
modernism. No American architect before that had done so, so I would,
you know, I would definitely put Wright at the top of the totem pole.
CHARLIE ROSE
Where do put a building Bilbao. Getty Center? Buildings that,
built at the end of this century, were they in sweep of buildings built
in the...
ROBERT HUGHES
I think Bilbao is a great building, but it's the last, as a museum, it's
the last of what it goo--, is gone into his market, sort of market to
the future, the future museum is probably going to be much more
intimate. And uh...
CHARLIE ROSE
Intimate?
ROBERT HUGHES
Yeah, than the, the, the idea of the mega, uh, Metropolitan Museum. Um,
I think very highly of the Getty Center, architecturally. Um, they,
we'll see how it performs as a museum, it's only been open a short
while.
CHARLIE ROSE
It certainly has the public's attention.
ROBERT HUGHES
It certainly has the public's attention, we know
one thing for sure, they're going to have to, in the museum of the
future, there must be more lavatories.
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
We've learned that, have we? Uh...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Do we include the, the photograph, when we talk about...?
CHARLIE ROSE
Sure, well let's, please so.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
And...
CHARLIE ROSE
And, because I know you want to bring that up. Photography.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Well, yeah, I wonder about it, because if we didn't have the photograph,
we wouldn't have celebrity. And again, I, I do wonder...
NORM PEARLSTINE
I mean, we wouldn't have magazines.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
And we wouldn't have magazines. And, and...
NORM PEARLSTINE
What a horrible prospect.
CHARLIE ROSE
Before there was TIME, there was photography.
NORM PEARLSTINE
That's it. Yeah.
ROB REINER
Did we do comedy? Did we do comedy?
CHARLIE ROSE
No, but we can do it now.
ROB REINER
We did, I did television.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah. Do comedy.
ROB REINER
Because I'd love do mention...
CHARLIE ROSE
We talked about sitcoms, but...
ROB REINER
Well, yeah, but to me, you know, Lenny Bruce had a
tremendous impact on, on comedy, in that he was the first person to, uh,
change the form of stand-up, from, uh, just joke tellers to people who
were commenting on the social scene.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yes.
ROB REINER
Uh, and, and, and Bill Cosby.
CHARLIE ROSE
Do we have that...
ROB REINER
Bill Cosby's very important.
CHARLIE ROSE
Hold on one second, do we have, in terms of, of what Lenny Bruce did,
uh, do we have that today, at work, in terms of American political
satire?
ROB REINER
Howard Stern.
CHARLIE ROSE
Howard Stern.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Howard Stern.
ROB REINER
Leave the building!
(LAUGHTER)
CHERYL CROW
Shame on you!
ROB REINER
Leave the building!
(APPLAUSE)
ROB REINER
Howard Stern.
CHARLIE ROSE
Uh, I mean, have we lost American political satire in the way that...?
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Well I wonder if it hasn't be--, gone into other forms. You know, like
is it in rap music, to some extent, I don't know if I would call that
satire, I mean, if you can take the lyric seriously, no.
NORM PEARLSTINE
It's like comedy, you know...
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
It's, it's harder. I mean at the uh, White House Correspondent's
Dinner last week, everybody was feeling badly for whoever was going
to have to sort of follow the President. Right, because, you know, is,
does, does, to public figures become the greatest performers, in a
way.
NORM PEARLSTINE
Yeah, yeah. Actors.
ROB REINER
But Bill Cosby, I think also had a tremendous impact.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
What about Moms Mabley?
ROB REINER
Yeah?
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Moms?
ROB REINER
Yeah, Moms. For sure.
(OFF MIKE)
ROB REINER
And Richard Pryor. But see, Richard Pryor and George Carlin and Robert
Klein, and, all these people, uh, Lenny Bruce set a tone for all these
people to be able to, to use comedy as a way of shpritzing,
as we call shrpitzing, it's not just jokes, I mean, Bob Hope,
and, and Henny Youngman and those guys were great with telling jokes and
one-liners, and then, Lenny Bruce opened it up to being able to, you
know, a stream of consciousness, like Joyce did to the novel. Uh, Lenny
Bruce did to comedy.
ROBERT HUGHES
Also, we have to remember the 20th cen--, the end of the 20th century
would not be what it is if it weren't for Monty Python.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERT HUGHES
It's true.
CHARLIE ROSE
And you know what, and John Cleese says, that the reason they only, they
made so few of them, how many did they make?
ROBERT HUGHES
Not an awful lot.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah. Was because of the, they ran out of, they, they were so, the
creative, they couldn't duplicate it any more.
ROBERT HUGHES
Yeah, and then you stop. Which is right.
CHARLIE ROSE
You stop. Which is... ideas from the audience before we leave this...?
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Charlie Chaplin. You bet. Charlie Chaplin. Let's take one at a time,
we give you an opportunity. Don't blow it. One at a time.
NORM PEARLSTINE
Chaplin. Great call.
CHARLIE ROSE
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Would we allow Lucille Ball to come out of television into, consider
her if we think of the chocolate scene, and the fact that we're, could
we call her a great clown?
CHARLIE ROSE
I think chocolate is a great idea. Who else?
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Groucho Marx.
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Jack Benny, in terms of comedy and, timing, and...
ROB REINER
Buster Keaton, I would second that one. I would second Buster Keaton
over, over Chaplin, because he was funnier.
CHARLIE ROSE
Buster Keaton?
ROB REINER
He's funny, I mean, think about Chaplin, I mean, I'm going to just, this
is an interesting thing. We all know Chaplin's great. I mean he was
obviously an innovator, he was technically brilliant, well, how many
people actually laugh at Charlie Chaplin?
ROBERT HUGHES
Lots.
ROB REINER
Applaud.
(APPLAUSE)
ROB REINER
All right. Interesting. It's interesting. I, you know, I, I watch
Charlie Chaplin fascinated by him, I don't laugh, though. I laughed at
Bu--, I laughed at Buster Keaton. And I laugh at W C Fields, and I
laugh at Laurel and Hardy, and those, those innovators I laugh at more
than a Chaplin, although I admit Chaplin, the great innovator.
CHARLIE ROSE
Uh, anyone else?
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Jackie Gleason.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Right.
CHARLIE ROSE
Norm? Gleason.
NORM PEARLSTINE
Not in the league with Sid Ceasar, no.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yes, anyone else?
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Marcel Marceau.
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Dance as a category.
ROB REINER
We didn't do dance.
CHARLIE ROSE
We didn't do dance.
ROB REINER
We didn't do Fred Astaire.
CHARLIE ROSE
We didn't do Fred Astaire.
CHERYL CROW
Martha Graham.
CHARLIE ROSE
Martha Graham and dance.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
CHARLIE ROSE
Alvin Ailey. (Overlapping voices) Barishnikov.
ROB REINER
Sam M. Simms.
CHARLIE ROSE
Uh, one last.
(OFF MIKE)
ROB REINER
Godard ...
CHARLIE ROSE
Godard would be good.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
ROBERT HUGHES
Provincially influential. Enormously, I mean, Duchamp and Picasso are
the opposite poles of almost equal influence upon 20th century art.
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah. How so Duchamp?
ROBERT HUGHES
Because, it's a, you know, it is Duchamp who lies behind such a huge
variety of modern things, from conceptual art to body art, to, to some
degree performance, etc., etc. etc. I mean, Duchamp, is the
guy who, unquestionably, whose cool had far more influence upon the
1960s, '70s, '80s, in America, than the, the, the, apparently
unrecapturable heat of Picasso.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
What about fashion?
CHARLIE ROSE
Fashion is, did we consider fashion as having influence?
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
It, I think it does.
CHERYL CROW
Yes.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Where, in the, how about the...Isa Miyaki, and, sort of deconstructing
clothes, and making these statements that are almost artistic, as people
walk down...
ROB REINER
So who would you put in the fashion category?
NORM PEARLSTINE
Coco Chanel for...
CHARLIE ROSE
Coco Chanel for the...
CHERYL CROW
How about uh...
CHARLIE ROSE
For the century, Coco Chanel is a vote.
NORM PEARLSTINE
Yeah.
CHERYL CROW
Who was the uh, the inventor of the topless bikini...
ROB REINER
Woody Gurner.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
APPLAUSE
ROB REINER
Fabulous!
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
Oh, I'd have to vote for Rudy!
CHERYL CROW
Ozzie Smith.
CHARLIE ROSE
Rob Ferroni? Yeah who? Ozzie..?
CHERYL CROW
He designed for Hendrix, and Mick Jagger, before rock and fashion
became...
NORM PEARLSTINE
And a body of works...
CHARLIE ROSE
Do we not give fashion as much, uh...
ROB REINER
Do we have to and (Overlapping voices).
ROBERT HUGHES
I give it a lot of weight and I think we should, you know, sort of, you
know, in mentioning Chanel, we should also go back to the other thing,
that other quiet pioneer of the 20s, Paul Pioret(?). You know, and,
the, there are quite a few others. As long as we do not have to invite
the sacred name of what' the name of that guy who was shot in Florida,
or, uh...
SEVERAL
Versace.
ROBERT HUGHES
Versace, which to me is everything I hate about, you know...
CHARLIE ROSE
About fashion?
ROBERT HUGHES
About the fashion industry.
CHARLIE ROSE
But what, what is everything you hate about the fashion industry? The
idea of...?
ROBERT HUGHES
Showiness, lax cutting, uh, you know, sort a regalia, you know, it's
interior, exterior decoration, rather than architecture, which is what
great fashion should be.
CHARLIE ROSE
I conclude with this point, uh, I assume that it's...
ROB REINER
This, look at what he's, look at he's, look at how he's dressed!
LAUGHTER
ROB REINER
Look how he's dressed!
APPLAUSE
ROB REINER
This is an expert!
CHARLIE ROSE
Yeah.
ROB REINER
He knows what he's talking about.
CHARLIE ROSE
Before I, before I...
ROB REINER
You're wearing an Armani suit. All right?
LAUGHTER
ROB REINER
Look at, you know.
CHARLIE ROSE
And he's talking about fashion. Before I, I think we did, uh, we didn't
give enough attention to photography.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Right.
CHARLIE ROSE
And who should we mention among the great photographers that had an
impact on our time?
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
How about Avedon, would we...?
CHARLIE ROSE
Richard Avedon...
ROB REINER
Penn, Irving Penn.
CHARLIE ROSE
Irving Penn.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Gordon Parks.
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
CHARLIE ROSE
Eisenstadt, from the...
ANNA DEAVERE ROSE
Ansel Adams.
CHARLIE ROSE
Ansel Adams.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
Gordon Parks.
CHARLIE ROSE
Okay, Gordon Parks, clearly.
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Robert Cappa, well huge influence in terms of, of
(OFF MIKE)
CHARLIE ROSE
Walker Evans, see?
(OVERLAPPING VOICES)
CHARLIE ROSE
We would have been so much better if we could have talked to all of you
before we started this process.
LAUGHTER
CHARLIE ROSE
I just want to, I think TIME, TIME Maga--, Stielga(?), exactly. Yeah.
TIME Magazine has got to, at the end of this process, choose one person,
as the most influential person within the category of artist and
entertainers, on our culture, in this century. I'm going to go around
this list, one time, to get one name, and I begin with you, Robert
Hughes.
ROBERT HUGHES
Picasso.
CHARLIE ROSE
One name. Picasso. One name.
CHERYL CROW
Dylan.
CHARLIE ROSE
Dylan.
CHERYL CROW
Of, of all the arts?
CHARLIE ROSE
Yes.
CHERYL CROW
Picasso.
ROB REINER
We have to pick one person?
CHARLIE ROSE
Yes, sir. Among all the thing, ideas and the names we have talked
about, this afternoon, one name. The most influential, had the biggest
impact in the 20th century.
ROB REINER
I have to say Picasso.
NORM PEARLSTINE
Duke Ellington.
CHARLIE ROSE
Duke Ellington!
(LAUGHTER)
CHARLIE ROSE
Why?
NORM PEARLSTINE
Well, he comes before P, I don't know. Because I resonate more
to music than I do to art.
CHARLIE ROSE
All right.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
See, it's so subjective.
CHARLIE ROSE
Of course it is. But you have to choose.
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
But you're the Editor in Chief.
(LAUGHTER)
ANNA DEAVERE SMITH
You win!
NORM PEARLSTINE
Don't worry, I guarantee you, it doesn't cut anything with the people at
TIME.
CHARLIE ROSE
I have lots of thanks to give, and let me just say, that, first of all,
to you in this audience for coming here, and enjoining this
conversation, I thank you. Secondly...
APPLAUSE
CHARLIE ROSE
Clap for yourself. Secondly, this wonderful place that we are, the
Getty Center, we thank you at the Getty Center for allowing us to come
here.
APPLAUSE
CHARLIE ROSE
Third, TIME Incorporate, TIME Magazine, and CBS News, I want to thank
them.
APPLAUSE
CHARLIE ROSE
All the people who helped put this together, and finally, and most
importantly, this extraordinary panel, I want to thank all of you.
APPLAUSE
CHARLIE ROSE
Thank you for joining us, we'll see you next time.
APPLAUSE
(OFF MIKE)
(END OF TAPE)
