'Indian Society Needs To Change'

AN STYLE="font-size: 75%; color:#990000">Tuesday, Feb. 27, 2001 | As the Kumbh Mela religious festival was coming to a close in Allahabad earlier this month, millions of Hindu pilgrims were witness to an unusual sight: scores of saffron-clad swamis exhorting people not to take a holy dip in the waters. The protest, against what the swamis characterize as "obscurantist and superstitious religious practices," was organized by the 125-year-old Hindu reformist organization, the Arya Samaj. Its outspoken leader, Swami Agnivesh, talked to TIME South Asia contributor Maseeh Rahman in New Delhi on why he went to the Kumbh Mela, the problems that beset Hindu society today, and the failure of religious leaders to deal with critical issues. Edited excerpts:

TIME: Why did you participate in this unusual protest at Kumbh Mela?
Agnivesh: People attend believing they can wash away their sins by taking a dip in the river. They think they will be purified and the path to salvation will be cleared. Hindus have been made to believe this nonsense by the so-called swamis, sadhus and other religious leaders. When I asked people how taking a dip in any river could absolve a person of sins, the only answer I got was that there must be some reason, otherwise why were so many people attending. This kind of blind faith is at the root of the degeneration, the rot, which has set into Hindu society today.

TIME: But people have believed in this for centuries?
Agnivesh: The truth is that there is no scriptural support whatsover for such a belief. On the contrary, the scriptures emphasize right conduct; speak the truth and follow the path of righteousness. The degeneration of society started centuries ago when Brahmanism (orthodox Hinduism) became dominant. By stating that women and people of low caste could not study, for instance, they denied many people access to knowledge and education. At Kumbh Mela, nobody told these simple people about the real problem of pollution; sewerage and industrial effluent flow into the Ganges, and dead bodies are also thrown into the river in the belief that it provides direct access to swarga (Heaven).

TIME: Why haven't Hindu reform movements had a wider impact?
Agnivesh: Hinduism can take pride in the fact that, though there has been so much perversion and distortion, there is always room for reform. We have a history of powerful reform movements in this country. But unfortunately, such movements last for a period and then peter out. There were about 500 of us at the Kumbh Mela and we could easily have been lynched by the crowd. Yet nobody said anything. We distributed thousands of leaflets to convey the message that taking a dip could never ever wash away one's sins. The problem is that nobody really cares; they don't beat you up but at the same time they don't take much notice of you either. Also, the way the international media glamorized the Kumbh Mela, focusing on the sheer number of the crowd and the foreigners at the event, made the festival extraordinary for us Indians. Instead of the media helping people question such absurd notions as washing away sins, it glorified the event. For us, whenever white people show up for something it becomes an exceptional event. All this was very sickening and I felt we needed to challenge it.

TIME: What do you think needs to be done?
Agnivesh: Indian society needs to change; it needs to inculcate the values of doubt and dissent. There must be debate and society should question the authority of religious leaders. Nowhere in the world would you find the kind of abominable caste system that still persists in India, and the indignities that are heaped on humanity. Yet such issues are very cleverly skirted by organizations like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Congress). The VHP even tried to hijack and politicize the Kumbh Mela by raising the issue of the Ayodhya temple there.

TIME: Are you saying that whether the Ram temple is constructed in Ayodhya or not, it will make no difference to Hinduism?
Agnivesh: That's right. There are already more than 100 Ram temples at Ayodhya. Of these, 15 are 'birthplace temples' of Ram, marking the site where he was supposed to have been born. And if you go to any of these the priest will tell you that his temple is more authentic than the others. And yet the VHP and others are clamoring for a 16th temple at a site that used to be a mosque.

TIME: But Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee recently said that the campaign to build a temple in Ayodhya was an expression of "national sentiment."
Agnivesh: He got totally carried away. I think he realized this and tried to make amends with the newspaper article he wrote later while on vacation in Kerala.

TIME: There was a lot of focus at the Kumbh Mela on the sadhus (holy men), especially the naked naga sadhus. What role do sadhus play in Hinduism today?
Agnivesh: They are very obscurant; they have no role whatsover. In fact, I have been told by responsible people that a large number of these naked naga sadhus are criminals on the run; they join these sects to protect themselves from the law. If you visit their camps, you'll find pitchers full of alcohol and lots of narcotics. It's all part of their religious rituals. The naga sadhus are discrediting the great spiritual traditions of this country. They should be totally disowned by the so-called mainstream religious leaders. They should be told to change their ways and not go about naked.

TIME: Do you believe Hinduism is facing a crisis today?
Agnivesh: Yes, the basic crisis is one of social injustice that emanates from the caste system, from gender inequality and so on. The majority of those who went to the Kumbh Mela went with the idea of personal salvation. It's time Hindu society woke up to the fact that personal salvation is not possible unless there is social salvation.

TIME: So how is it that even 50 years after independence, the caste system, child marriages, dowry deaths and other ills still persist?
Agnivesh: Exactly. This is what needs to be asked. Why in spite of so much religion, and huge gatherings in the name of religion, has India come to such a pass? Despite India being a signatory to the Convention on Human Rights, as many as 25,000 brides are brutally killed each year because of disputes over dowries. Dalits are still being treated worse than animals, and about one million children are married off at a very young age. And then there are the occasional sati (bride-burning) incidents. It's all very painful. I hold religious leaders squarely responsible for perpetuating this discriminatory, iniquitous, unjust social order.