Interview: Talking to Afghan President Karzai

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Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, your long time foe, stepped down yesterday. What does this mean for Afghanistan?
Arrivals and departures don't matter much. What matters is institutional corrections. Unless we correct the institution, unless we change the mindsets that follow an old policy. For example, if Pakistan is using radicalism as a tool of policy for strategic depth in Afghanistan, well, I wish to tell them that it won't work. The best strategic depth in Afghanistan is friendship, cooperation. Like France and Germany. Now France has the best strategic depth in Germany. And Germany has the best strategic depth in France. [It is a] cooperative environment. Afghanistan is willing to build that kind of relationship. In my opinion that is the best strategic depth to have: cooperation, not weaponry, not sanctuary, not undermining, not seeking a puppet state. That will not happen period.

You have accused the ISI of supporting terrorism in Afghanistan, particularly in the case of the Indian Embassy bombing. Do you think the new civilian government in Pakistan will be able to rein in the ISI when a military leader could not?
[Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza] Gilani is a good man. He has the right intentions. I hope he gets the tools of control. That is for the Pakistani government to decide, and that is for us and the international community to help him with. Afghanistan will go out of its way. Today the army chief of Pakistan was in Afghanistan today at Bagram Airforce base. I called [General Ashfaq Pervez] Kayani on the telephone to welcome him to my country. And to tell him that Afghanistan cannot achieve peace or prosperity without friendly relations with Pakistan. I hope he recognizes that what they are doing [in terms of supporting militancy in Afghanistan] is causing immense damage to Pakistan itself. Someone has to recognize this need for change, and for a modern relationship with Afghanistan, a civilized relationship. I hope it will occur.

Do you think this will happen?
I am always optimistic. There is no other way. we cannot live a life in opposition. And I will continue working , continue and continue forever.

Do you think Pakistan's new civilian government can reign in the militancy?
Not by not changing the concept. In other words, unless the establishment of Pakistan changes its foundation of policy towards the neighbor, there will be trouble. If they think that strategic depth in Afghanistan can only be gained by promoting radicalism, destabilizing Afghanistan, having a weak puppet government, and having Afghanistan in disarray, then they will have to have a staging point, and that staging point cannot be in Afghanistan, it will have to be in Pakistan. And that staging point creates exactly the replication of what is happening in Afghanistan. Therefore the tribal territories will not be peaceful as long as that policy continues. When that changes, yes, the tribal territories will become peaceful.

But is it too late, is the genie out of the bottle?
The genie was out of the bottle a long time back, not this year or last year but many years ago. The genie is not a self-winding one. The genie can be put back into the bottle and the bottle can be destroyed.

What will it take to do that?
A proper analysis of the Pakistani national interest. A proper analysis of the course to be followed into the future. A different thinking about life itself. How do I want to live with my neighbor? Do I want to live a life undermining it or pushing it around, or do I want a neighbor who is prosperous and good and with whom I can work well? Afghanistan wants that life. And Pakistan will benefit from that life too. One day it will come about. Definitely.
Secondly. There is also a job we have to do in Afghanistan. Afghanistan will never be beholden to Pakistan. Afghanistan's progress and stability will only add to Pakistan's progress and stability. Afghanistan will bring prosperity to add to Pakistan. Afghanistan will bring no quarrels to Pakistan. Pakistan has to recognize that Afghanistan has been in this part of the world for a long, long time. It's a good, old, sage man. It will not go away. Empires have tried and failed to conquer this place. And Afghanistan will guard its independence and soverignity and it's right to a relationship with others very jealously. Extreme jealously. I am extremely jealous. I will guard it jealously.
We will have relations with India. We will have relations with Iran. With china. We will have relations with America. Strategic ones, strong ones. Deep ones, and with Russia too. But these are relationships that will not be used against our neighbors. Not against Pakistan, not against Iran. We have been very firm with the Americans about Iran, and we have been very frank with Iran about our relations with America. I went and explained to the Iranian government our relation with the United States. Therefore our relationship with India in the same manner is not counterproductive to Pakistan. It is between Afghanistan and India. India is one of the great economic powers.
[India provided] a good educational environment for Afghans — I was one of them and there are a thousand more like me in India now. Afghanistan wants this relationship, and we hope that Pakistan evolves into a good relationship with India as well. So we are clear. We are not shadowy. We have clarity about our objectives, our way forward, and about what we want to lead into the future. This cannot be undermined by bombs, or suicides or by violence. In other words, we are morally correct. We are not cheating on our neighbors, and we will not cheat. We will be straightforward, as we were in the past. Very straightforward. At some cost for us.